New pilot eager for advice!!!!

[pilotyip]

For big dog, the reason most people with jobs in flying have degrees is because most people applying have degrees. No one has any stats on the success rate of non-degreed pilots hired vs number applied.

 

[Big Dog]

"other" factors

I hear many stories where the higher time or more experienced guy didn't get the job and the lower time guy did. Must have been some other factor like a degree, or just plain character. There is more to an applicant than just the logbook columns. It all works both ways and it's in the eye of the interviewer.

 

[pilotyip]

Big dog as I said before good airlines SWA, CAL, JB do not let the degree get in the way of making a good decision. I bet you have a degree and you should be proud that you do, it is only natural. But it is the only means to being successful. There are alternate route and I a champion of plan B.

 

[AdlerDriver]

.......One thing I've seen is that some people don't seem happy flying. I know things have been tough in aviation for the last few years, but you get to fly! That to me is just the coolest thing in the world, and I'd do it for free. Surely if you are making a living doing it you should be happy and grateful? People out there would kill for such a great oppurtunity!..........

You would do it for free?? UFB!!!! “some people don’t seem happy flying???” Yah think????!!!! “Things have been tough in aviation??” You don’t have a clue. Talk to the 20-30+ year veterans of major airlines that have seen their retirement funds evaporate forever!! I’m sure most of them are flying around right now thinking “Well, I just took a 50% pay cut, I’m going to need to sell my house and get a condo, my retirement plan is gone, I’m away from my home and family 20 days per month and I’m probably going to need to work at Walmart when I hit mandatory pilot retirement age so I can pay my bills, but at least I get to fly!!” “Yup, that is just the coolest thing!! I’m making a living at it and I’m just so grateful.” Give me a break! You need a serious reality check.



No matter how screwed up this profession gets, no matter how bad the pay, benefits and working conditions get, there will always be some idiot with stars in his eyes willing to bend over and take it. Airline management is foaming at the mouth, hoping to get their hands on a whole airline worth of pilots with your attitude. Don’t you realize that your willingness to work for crap wages with poor work rules is one of the reasons the pilot profession is in a downward spiral? All these pilots who take RJ jobs working for less money than they could make at McDonald’s are not getting experience so they can get their “dream job”. The dream job is gone. Many of them will eventually realize that their current job is the final stop in their career. The rapid expansion of the feeder carriers flying RJs is permanently removing the major airline jobs those RJ pilots once hoped for.



Look what’s happening at Northwest. They are probably going to park all their DC-9s and furlough up to 1200 pilots. The flying that they did with those –9s is going to be farmed out to their feeders flying RJs. Does anyone really think that flying will ever return to the Northwest mainline again? That flying will be gone from NWA forever along with 1200 major airline jobs all you “wannabes” think you’re building time to get. The same thing has already happened at US Airways. They’ve farmed out a ton of their flying to their feeders permanently. Think about that the next time you get all excited that RJ airline X is adding 100 jets and expanding, hiring like crazy, etc. All that expansion simply means that the crappy RJ job you took because you wanted to build time is going to be your career.



I predict by the time our friend who started this post is 30, the only pilots making a respectable living flying passengers will be flying international or for Southwest. Thank goodness I’m a freight-dog now. What we now call “major airlines” will be fractions of their former selves. It is almost impossible for an airline to operate the mixed fleet of aircraft required to fly both domestic and international and remain profitable in both areas. The big boys will give up trying to compete with single-fleet low cost carriers within the USA. They will operate wide-bodies internationally and perform little if any domestic flying (maybe some transcons). They will have minimal expansion and hiring will be at a trickle, mostly to replace retirements. Those “dream jobs” will be few and far between. The airline feeders will get bigger aircraft and will effectively replace the domestic operations of their major airline partners. They will still retain the low pay scales and poor retirement benefits and will have basically created a new B-scale airline. They will be able to do this because of the over-abundant supply of “wannabes” who are willing to go 50 grand into debt buying themselves ratings and then whore themselves out to get a non-existent dream job.



What we really need to do is make it so hard to obtain an ATP that only true professionals with exceptional skills would be able to get and hold it. We need to shrink the pool of truly qualified pilots down to a point that real professionals are in demand. Unfortunately, that’s not going to happen. Especially with pilots like “Skippy” here, willing to work for free. Rant over.

 

[Almerick07]

Almerick, your logic is flawed. You can not make your comparison, because the two will not be equal. John the guy with the degree at age 28 has 3500 hours, 1500 MEL, 1000 Turbine and the Joe the guy without the degree has 5500 hours, 3500 MEL, 1500 TJ PIC under part 121, and two jet type ratings. Who is hired? The degree does not make the difference in this case. It is the quality of the applicants flight time and experience. That is why flying if you want to be a pilot is the most important thing. My opinion only of course.

My logic was 2 equally qualified pilots, 2 guys with 3500TT 1500ME 1000 Turbine one with a degree one without.... Who is Southwest going to hire? Coming from a hiring source SWA they look closely at experiences outside of aviation and proof of work ethic, he told me a degree satisfies both of these. I am in no way saying you cannot build a rewarding career without a degree, but why put yourself behind the curve right away by simply not having a degree. With the surplus of pilots airlines are going to need to find ways to weed out a few. A degree requirement is an obvious way to narrow down your field for practical purposes.
Have you ever seen the SWA application, they have alist of requirements you must check yes to before you can even apply, I can see a four year degree making that list once all our SJS guys build enough time and want to fly for a "real" airline.
And as far as AdlerDriver said:

What we really need to do is make it so hard to obtain an ATP that only true professionals with exceptional skills would be able to get and hold it.

I agree 100% let the kids with SJS sit in the right seat for free, twice as much money for the real professionals
dreamtofly2007....if you want it bad enough you can do it. But dont go into it only following your heart. Congrats at wanting a degree, I am getting one in finance so if my "dream" doesnt pan out I can still be marketable in a different profession. Being a pilot for an airline is a HUGE responsibility, those people in the back are putting their lives in your hands. The airline knows that and only wants pilots who will keep their paying customers safe and those pilots should be compensated fairly. Just so you know $20 an hour is not fair despite what your DCA instructors tell you. Whatver you just dont let this thread take your eyes off your dream, just go about it smartly

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Alderdriver

I hope your optimism in the cargo industry will hold out but I believe your industry is only a few years behind the passenger industry. Look at DHL. They have 4 companies that are going to start fighting for the domestic feed. And it could be more if international companies get the right to fly in the us. Do you think UPS and FedEX are going to allow you to fly airplanes for 50 percent more than your passenger peers? And before you start screaming "NO WAY WE WILL CLOSE THIS $%^&*( place!" Look at the passenger industry only 5 years ago. They were on cloud nine getting the largest pay increases in history.

I wish it were not so but I do not think any area of this industry is going to be sheltered from cuts.

 

[pilotyip]

almerick, how would they be equal? Joe non-degree guy started flying professionally 3-4 yrs before John the degreed guy.

 

[AdlerDriver]

...........Being a pilot for an airline is a HUGE responsibility, those people in the back are putting their lives in your hands. The airline knows that and only wants pilots who will keep their paying customers safe and those pilots should be compensated fairly. Just so you know $20 an hour is not fair despite what your DCA instructors tell you. ...

Oh, how I wish this was really the case. Most passengers choose their pilots with their wallet. It's amazing how little concern they have going with the cheapest ticket/airline they can. Sooner or later, when the airline job is so bad it no longer attracts real professionals, they're going to start getting what they're really paying for.

As far as airline management goes: They just want cheap pilots too. They don't care about the responsibility you take on as the Captain of a passenger jet. It's not their problem, it's the pilot's. If they can get someone to take on that responsibility cheaply (and they can), they don't care if the compensation is fair.

 

[Almerick07]

If they can get someone to take on that responsibility cheaply (and they can), they don't care if the compensation is fair.

This is why we need to help this kid get out of the attitude of I would do it for free.

Oh, how I wish this was really the case. Most passengers choose their pilots with their wallet. It's amazing how little concern they have going with the cheapest ticket/airline they can. Sooner or later, when the airline job is so bad it no longer attracts real professionals, they're going to start getting what they're really paying for.

It would be nice if the airlines treated a higher overhead like everyone else does....raise prices....not lower wages. The airlines are in a downward spiral there is a huge cancer and it is spreading quick, just trying to give this guy some basic insight as to why we should be paid fairly and not accept anything less. Anything wrong in trying to cure SJS before it starts???

 

[Almerick07]

almerick, how would they be equal? Joe non-degree guy started flying professionally 3-4 yrs before John the degreed guy.

Thats fine if you are comfortable taking the risk that aviation will always be there for you. My biggest concern is how applicable 5000TT will be outside of aviation, just incase...