New Flight Dept????

[CarjCapt]

After being out of the "Corporate" business for almost 20 years (was with the airlines) I'm now being asked to evaluate the possibility of a large company purchasing a mid size jet (8 passengers w/apu).

There are so many different jets available the choices are many. They are looking at a Hawker 800. What is out there in the <10million range that would have a NBAA IFR range of 2200+ miles, say DCA/IAD to SLC.

Help.

 

[gear_guy]

Are they looking for a new or used airplane? You will have a plethera of options in the used market. BTW, you can pretty much rule out any trips from/to DCA.

 

[HMR]

Do you need 2200+ miles or KIAD to SLC w/reserves? KIAD to KSLC is 1700nm if you take the long way (SID/airways/STAR). We were doing a similar search and settled on the Falcon 50. If your longest leg is KIAD to KSLC you'll have some more options than we had.

Is eight pax the usual load or only every now and then?

 

[CarjCapt]

Are they looking for a new or used airplane? You will have a plethera of options in the used market. BTW, you can pretty much rule out any trips from/to DCA.

Used

That is why I included IAD

 

[Number$Cruncher]

You should be able to get an early '88-90 Challenger for about $10MM, or a DA50 of the same vintage. A Hawker 800XP in the $10MM range will be of the '00-01 vintage, just be sure you can get the range you want. And check the baggage requirements...the Hawker's a bit tight in that department.

Personally...I'd go for the DA50...such a fine airplane. If you're doing eight pax regularly any of these but the Challenger is a bit of a squeeze.

 

[CarjCapt]

Do you need 2200+ miles or KIAD to SLC w/reserves? KIAD to KSLC is 1700nm if you take the long way (SID/airways/STAR). We were doing a similar search and settled on the Falcon 50. If your longest leg is KIAD to KSLC you'll have some more options than we had.

Is eight pax the usual load or only every now and then?

2200 IFR miles....which should cover IAD-SLC under the worst of conditions

which falcon 50...straight or EX

 

[CarjCapt]

Do you need 2200+ miles or KIAD to SLC w/reserves? KIAD to KSLC is 1700nm if you take the long way (SID/airways/STAR). We were doing a similar search and settled on the Falcon 50. If your longest leg is KIAD to KSLC you'll have some more options than we had.

Is eight pax the usual load or only every now and then?

Up to eight pax...something less mostly

 

[Number$Cruncher]

For $10MM you wouldn't be into the EX. They started in '96 and you'd have to spend north of $15MM.

 

[HMR]

2200 IFR miles....which should cover IAD-SLC under the worst of conditions

which falcon 50...straight or EX

The EX has better avionics and performance #'s. We looked at the Challenger also. The boss lost interest after the recent CL accidents. It's hard to beat the CL cabin. I have not flown either A/C, I've just been knee deep in research. Guys like G100 and Falc Capt will surely offer better advice.

Here's a link for some Falcon 50 (non EX) tech stuff.

I've got a bunch of airplane comparison info I've compiled. I'll PM you when I find it. Our dept got A LOT of help via PM's from members on this board.

 

[banned username 2]

2200 IFR miles....which should cover IAD-SLC under the worst of conditions

which falcon 50...straight or EX

You won't touch a 50EX for anywhere near $10M... However for what you are doing a straight 50 would work very well... Not sure on the range, but you might want to look into a Falcon 20F-5 retrofit (make sure it has the -5BR engines, not the -5AR)... About the same cabin as a 50 but less cost (and a bit less range, but should make IAD to SLC ok)

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

If you want to stay under budget go with the Hawker

I used to fly an HS-125 from DCA - LAS and would land with 2200 in the tanks. Depends on winds and PAX. The stand-up cabin is nice and you can get a newer Hawker for less than an older Falcon. If you had more money, I would choose the Falcon 50EX.

A previous poster had a good point about the bags, the Hawker is a bit tight, especially for skis. If it is just business luggage, it piles pretty high in the forward closet. plus, if you have at least one empty seat, there is additional room for bags.

The other draw back is the TKS system, but with a new Hawker that has been well maintained, it shouldn't be a problem.

Check the ADs and the RVSM mods.

It's all about how much you really want to spend vs. what equipment you can buy.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

what do 900b's go for these days??

I know you said mid-size but the 50 cabin is claustrophobic!

As far as ruling out the challenger b/c of the ice problem....well...just de-ice it. Cant beat that cabin for the price. Problem is, people like thier 601/604's so much they are keeping them!!

 

[rice]

Go For the DA-50!!!!!

Unquestionably the best "domestic" airplane available IMHO.
I have NEVER known a flight dept. where the missions didn't get longer or into more demanding airports as time progresses. Today its IAD to SLC, tomorrow it'll be IAD to SAN or SEA and you'll be cursing that Hawker or 20F you purchased. You should also consider the improved hot/high perf. you get with the 50. Nothing like departing ASE in the summer and being able to get beyond APA or GJT for a fuel stop. When the boss decides he wants to get in and out of that uncontrolled 4000' strip in BFE what aircraft is gonna get you there and back better than the 50? Check the V speeds and TO/landing distances. Lastly, it may not seem important now but trust me, the baggage compartment on the 50 is huge for an aircraft of its size and no one likes hauling the crew and pax gear into the cabin on a Hawker or DA-20F.
Bottom line, in your price range you will not find a better aircraft which will do it all as well the DA-50.
PM me if you want/need any specific info.

Rice

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

I agree 100% with Rice, but it will cost more money

Unquestionably the best "domestic" airplane available IMHO.
I have NEVER known a flight dept. where the missions didn't get longer or into more demanding airports as time progresses. Today its IAD to SLC, tomorrow it'll be IAD to SAN or SEA and you'll be cursing that Hawker or 20F you purchased. You should also consider the improved hot/high perf. you get with the 50. Nothing like departing ASE in the summer and being able to get beyond APA or GJT for a fuel stop. When the boss decides he wants to get in and out of that uncontrolled 4000' strip in BFE what aircraft is gonna get you there and back better than the 50? Check the V speeds and TO/landing distances. Lastly, it may not seem important now but trust me, the baggage compartment on the 50 is huge for an aircraft of its size and no one likes hauling the crew and pax gear into the cabin on a Hawker or DA-20F.
Bottom line, in your price range you will not find a better aircraft which will do it all as well the DA-50.
PM me if you want/need any specific info.

Rice

I agree the mission will most likely change, then the extra money spent will be well worth it.

 

[CatYaaak]

Especially if you're going to do long sectors, I'd recommend an older, mod-ed Challenger. Even with 8 pax it's roomy, has plenty of baggage space, and you won't find a more comfortable cockpit. And unless you're going to be making hot/high departures out of ASE every week, as a pax I'll take the occasional 30 minute Challenger tech stop over being sardined-in with 7 (or 5, or 3) other pax on a Falcon 50.

As far as the Hawker, it would be my last choice based on less-than-Falcon perfomance and less-than-Challenger comfort.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

DA-50. 440 KTS. 2400 LBS HR @ 380. Max Gross out of 4500 FT part 91. Coast to Coast any day. 7 to 10 million for mid time aircraft. Look for the DEECS mod or the upgraded engines. Cheers.

 

[Capthuff]

I know you said mid-size but the 50 cabin is claustrophobic!

This coming from a Global Express pilot.

Kinda makes me laugh.

The cabin is pretty big compared to what I fly. I guess it is all relative

 

[2000flyer]

If they're open to extra money, how 'bout a used DA2000? Nearly identical cabin to the CL series, much better performance, quieter, more fuel efficient. When you find one on the market, you'll probably be looking at ~$14-16M. Otherwise, I'd try as suggested, the DA50s.

2000Flyer

 

[Gulfstream 200]

This coming from a Global Express pilot.

Kinda makes me laugh.

The cabin is pretty big compared to what I fly. I guess it is all relative

yup- no doubt all relative.

A Global at hour 13 is just as claustrophic as that Lear at hour 3.

.
.

601-vs-DA50 -- I would take a fuel stop and a bigger cabin over that 50 anyday....then again, I couldnt afford to paint one nevermind buy one so my opinion means jack$hit (as usual)

 

[Hoof Hearted]

I would look at a GIII.