New FARs concerning Fractionals? 91K rules

[luvu]

gunfyter

you are brilliant. Keep it coming. you understand and are shining the spotlight where it needs to be shined.

figures, facts, reality check about the economics driving this industry presented in a short clear manner are empowering.

Like I said. Keep it coming. I suggest you start a new thread where you put more of this down for all to read. Call it "Just the facts, Maam."

Everybody else can add a different angle on how to do a thumbnail, "makes you think" calculation which cuts through the bull.

Someone posted a year or more ago a Netjet figure that, if true, would and should blow all our minds. It was a statement (and I don't have a clue if its true or not) that pilots at netjets represented 75% of the workforce but pilot salaries themselves only represented something like 25% of payroll.

This, if even approximately true is a mind bender. If pilots represent 75% of the workforce and can arguably be considered the most highly trained part of that workforce and the backbone of workforce, then one would expect this 75% of the workforce to represent significantly more than 75% of the payroll and certainly not LESS and so significantly less.

Anybody here know the real numbers related to this?

 

[Grizz]

I can't think of any reason.
....

Yep I think they can make money paying 100K.
...

Ssshhh - don't confuse him with the facts.

 

[gunfyter]

Easy Griz... The failed TA only offered 100K by yr 12... and only 90 at yr 10. he is offering better by comparison.

 

[da90drivr]

Where are you getting these hourly figures? They sound a little high.
Unless I missed something a 757 is also a 2 pilot airplane - why would you need an extra set of pilots.
You need to compare apples to apples not apples to oranges.
You seem to want all of the benefits of an airline job but the pay of a Fortune 500 corporate pilot. Your job has some similarities to both but you are a hybred operation. Airline pilots are paid by the hour and have a schedule, corporate pilots are paid a salary to be available when the boss want to go. You are paid a salary and have a schedule.
Just my opinion (and you know what they say about opinions) but I don't see the company caving on your salary demands, just does not seem realistic.

I can't think of any reason.

Revenues for a Citation X trip BOS to LAX.

$8400 / hr. times 5.0 hours $42, 000 to fly 2 people to the west coast.

Revenues for a 757 with 150 pax ave ticket $400

$60,000.

The costs associated with operating the 757 much higher and it has to support twice as many pilots plus Flight Attendants and permanant ground personel. The Frac operation or nonsched 135 company does not have these costs.

Yep I think they can make money paying 100K.

A Falcon 2000 trip would have cost $10,400/hr times 5.5 hrs or $57,200 about the same as the 757.

 

[gunfyter]

you do the math.
http://www.meyerassociatesny.com/PDFs/MarquisJet.pdf#search='Marquis%20jet%20brochure'

 

[XTW]

Unless I missed something a 757 is also a 2 pilot airplane - why would you need an extra set of pilots. .

Airlines normally crew at around 6 crews per plane(12 pilots for a 757). I believe fracs crew at around 2.5 crews per plane(5 pilots per plane).

 

[da90drivr]

The numbers you quote are for Marquis customers not the rate for the owners of the aircraft. Again apples to apples......
You are also comparing yourself to a 757 operation. Not even close to what you do. Different regs and rules. You need to compare yourself to maybe a small national or regional operator with similar size aircraft and daily usage.

you do the math.
http://www.meyerassociatesny.com/PDFs/MarquisJet.pdf#search='Marquis%20jet%20brochure'

 

[Grizz]

Just what we need...another corp. pilot coming on here telling us what we must do or what we can expect as the end result. Seriously dude, we just don't care. You're not in the fight so it must make you feel superior to tell NetJets guys that they'll never make reasonable money for their efforts. Yawn...we've heard it all before from guys that have better arguments than you've presented. We're not impressed.

 

[gunfyter]

The numbers you quote are for Marquis customers not the rate for the owners of the aircraft. Again apples to apples......
You are also comparing yourself to a 757 operation. Not even close to what you do. Different regs and rules. You need to compare yourself to maybe a small national or regional operator with similar size aircraft and daily usage.

You bring up a good point. Airlines have to BUY and LEASE their aircraft. Frac companies do not even have that cost. We have the numbers for the Fractional Owners too. Its about 20% more to JetCard than Own. Still a lot of revenue for flying a $24 million airplane someone else paid for.

But the closest Apples to Apples revenue wise is the JetCard customers because that is where the Frac company has to buy the airplanes or make airplane payments like the 757 operator. Also the 757 does not always have 150 passengers.... sometimes bringing far less revenues than we do.

My comparison shows that the revenues are similar. Since YIP wanted to know where the monies will come from.

How long should I wait for 100K? I been here 7 yrs. Yipsters in for 100 by 10.... Not buying that.

You seem to want all of the benefits of an airline job but the pay of a Fortune 500 corporate pilot. Your job has some similarities to both but you are a hybred operation.
​

Hybrid Operation? Ok I'll take a Hybrid Payscale. When do I get my $100k... year 3? Its going to take 4 to 5 years to make Captain anyway.

 

[650 driver]

We corporate guys dont care either, just having a good time watching the fractional companies self destroy themselves.
Its good entertainment.
650

 

[some_dude]

$8400/hour for a Citation X? Wow, someone is getting ripped off big time!

If your sales team is good enough to sell Citation X time for $8400/hour, they deserve a raise even more than you do!

Maybe you meant $4800/hour? Still a rip off (Xs typically charter for around $3700/hour, plus or minus a few hundred), but not quite as bad.

I can't think of any reason.

Revenues for a Citation X trip BOS to LAX.

$8400 / hr. times 5.0 hours $42, 000 to fly 2 people to the west coast.

Revenues for a 757 with 150 pax ave ticket $400

$60,000.

The costs associated with operating the 757 much higher and it has to support twice as many pilots plus Flight Attendants and permanant ground personel. The Frac operation or nonsched 135 company does not have these costs.

Yep I think they can make money paying 100K.

A Falcon 2000 trip would have cost $10,400/hr times 5.5 hrs or $57,200 about the same as the 757.

 

[Grizz]

Marquis trips are point to point with no positioning charges. It's still expensive but not totally out of line.

 

[gunfyter]

$8400/hour for a Citation X? Wow, someone is getting ripped off big time!

Maybe you meant $4800/hour? Still a rip off (Xs typically charter for around $3700/hour, plus or minus a few hundred), but not quite as bad.

No I mean $8400/hour. And selling like WildFire.... Where's my cut? $4400/hr might get you the Ultra. I look in the mirror everyday at the guy getting ripped off big time.

 

[Grizz]

But that $8400 is without any dead leg charges. Most charter companies charge you $X per hour for the flight plus $Y amount to either get the plane to you or back from where you're going. Marquis just charges for the occupied time.

 

[some_dude]

It's still a horrible deal. The charter company could fly you in the X and deadhead the X home and it would still be cheaper.

Oh well, as PT Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute!

Honestly, I cannot understand why people sign up for that Marquis deal.

But that $8400 is without any dead leg charges. Most charter companies charge you $X per hour for the flight plus $Y amount to either get the plane to you or back from where you're going. Marquis just charges for the occupied time.

 

[gunfyter]

I believe they sold 40,000 hours worth of that time .... Not sure if thats just last year or since inception.

 

[da90drivr]

Grizz,
I wasn't telling you what to do. I could not care less. You must go back to the beginning and remember you accepted the job knowing the pay was substandard.
As long as there are people willing to fly airplanes for slave wages you will see little improvement to your situation.
If you don't want people to comment on the situation perhaps you should not post here.

Just what we need...another corp. pilot coming on here telling us what we must do or what we can expect as the end result. Seriously dude, we just don't care. You're not in the fight so it must make you feel superior to tell NetJets guys that they'll never make reasonable money for their efforts. Yawn...we've heard it all before from guys that have better arguments than you've presented. We're not impressed.

 

[650 driver]

I agree with DA90
As long as Netjets has an abundance of pilot apps, they have no reason to adjust the payscales. Its been this way since the business started in 1986.
There are thousands of out or work pilots and unhappy airline crewmembers to keep the flow going.
Pilots will fly for slave wages because its......Fun.

650

 

[pilotyip]

What wrong wiht 90K?

How is $90K in 10 years slave wages? I have never seen it, and I love my job, live well, own an airplane, and a house. I do not understand why something close to $100K that can be done by a high school graduate is not a good deal. I mean how lucky can a person be to make $90K per year doing something they love to do. How many other people are really slaving at $50K-$60K/yr in a job they hate, one they work at 5 days a week, in the same location. To be paid a decent wage to fly an airplane, something you love to do, is an unbelievable blessing. I am living out a child hood dream.

 

[da90drivr]

There is nothing wrong with 90K/ year but why pay you 90K/year when there are pilots out there who will do the same job for 28K?
High School or College should have no bearing. Formal education has long been used as an excuse to shrink the pile of resumes on some HR persons desk.
Yes flying is fun but if you choose it as a career you should not accept a job for substandard wages and lower the bar for everyone else.

How is $90K in 10 years slave wages? I have never seen it, and I love my job, live well, own an airplane, and a house. I do not understand why something close to $100K that can be done by a high school graduate is not a good deal. I mean how lucky can a person be to make $90K per year doing something they love to do. How many other people are really slaving at $50K-$60K/yr in a job they hate, one they work at 5 days a week, in the same location. To be paid a decent wage to fly an airplane, something you love to do, is an unbelievable blessing. I am living out a child hood dream.