New Embraer Legacy 450 and 500 - Which Frac Will Fly Them?

[On Your Six]

Alright, I know the frac industry is currently in the dumps with fleet restructuring, layoffs and lower sales (for now).

With that said, Embraer is coming out with some really nice looking aircraft including the Embraer 450 and 500 to be introduced in the next 2-3 years (2nd half of 2012). Check out these airplanes if you haven't already seen them:

http://www.embraerexecutivejets.com/english/content/aircraft/legacy500_three_view.asp

Nice fly-by-wire flight deck:

http://www.embraerexecutivejets.com...ps/popups_img.asp?strImg=legacy500_cockpit_01


Even my boss is interested in potentially adding an Embraer Legacy 500 to his stable. Any thoughts about whether some of the fracs are looking into these - or is it just too early in the "cleaning house" phase to consider? FLOPS has a big Phenom 300 order and currently flies the bigger Legacy (ERJ) but not sure if the Legacy 500 or 450 are considerations.

Who will fly them? It's gotta be either Netjets or FLOPS given the ownership of Flex and CS by manufacturers.

Happy holidays

 

[gutshotdraw]

My guess would be FLOPS because the LAST thing NJ needs to be doing now is ADDING another type to the stable. The company has desperately needed fleet rationalization for years and we're finally getting it. Just my guess though...

 

[On Your Six]

My guess would be FLOPS because the LAST thing NJ needs to be doing now is ADDING another type to the stable. The company has desperately needed fleet rationalization for years and we're finally getting it. Just my guess though...

Good points. Makes me wonder whether Netjets would consider swapping one fleet for another - not sure how that would work with customer/owner contracts, etc. Here's a question - is Netjets likely replacing its G200s with G250s? If not, maybe the Legacy 500 could be a replacement... Who knows?

I am betting Embraer will look to make some deals in the next 18 months.

 

[jetwash]

Heard from a FLOPS salesman that they are looking for a replacement for the Hawker 800xp. If the Phenom 300 works out good they are considering the Legacy 450.
The rumor is that Embraer has money tied in with HIG who still owns a share of FLOPS.

But until they show up on the ramp this is all speculation.

 

[Willy21]

I would not be surprised to see NetJets move this way in the future. Mr Sokol will cut only for so long. Eventually he will need to spend money and invest in the future of this company. If NetJets is to be an operationaly profitable business the days of buying new airplanes every 10,000 hours will come to an end. We need airplanes that can easily fly 1,000 hours a year for more than a decade. Embraer builds these airplanes to be utilized in a fractional operation, ie. high time and high cycle. We all know that Cessna and Hawker Beechcraft build a good airplane but it is designed for about 400 hours a year max. That makes a 10 year old NetJets airplane 20 years old if it were flying in a true corporate flight department.

In my opinion during the next 15 years NetJets will be down to 5 fleet types. There will be a small cabin, (CJ4 or Phenom 300) two mid-size, (two of these three XL, Sovereign, X, Legacy 450 and 550) a super mid-size, (G250) and a large cabin. (G450, GV, G550). The reason I think the Legacy 450 and 550 might be the midsize airplanes of choice is they have the same engines, HTF 7500E, and from the pictures the same flight deck. That would probably mean a common type which equals more flexibility. You then could have 6 different airplanes requiring 4 type ratings. I think somebody told me that currently we have 15 different airplanes requiring 14 seperate type ratings.

 

[On Your Six]

I would not be surprised to see NetJets move this way in the future. Mr Sokol will cut only for so long. Eventually he will need to spend money and invest in the future of this company. If NetJets is to be an operationaly profitable business the days of buying new airplanes every 10,000 hours will come to an end. We need airplanes that can easily fly 1,000 hours a year for more than a decade. Embraer builds these airplanes to be utilized in a fractional operation, ie. high time and high cycle. We all know that Cessna and Hawker Beechcraft build a good airplane but it is designed for about 400 hours a year max. That makes a 10 year old NetJets airplane 20 years old if it were flying in a true corporate flight department.

In my opinion during the next 15 years NetJets will be down to 5 fleet types. There will be a small cabin, (CJ4 or Phenom 300) two mid-size, (two of these three XL, Sovereign, X, Legacy 450 and 550) a super mid-size, (G250) and a large cabin. (G450, GV, G550). The reason I think the Legacy 450 and 550 might be the midsize airplanes of choice is they have the same engines, HTF 7500E, and from the pictures the same flight deck. That would probably mean a common type which equals more flexibility. You then could have 6 different airplanes requiring 4 type ratings. I think somebody told me that currently we have 15 different airplanes requiring 14 seperate type ratings.

Great points. Makes sense to me especially if you have common type ratings. Even a non-aviation person like Sokol could understand that improvement in efficiency/flexibility.

I also agree that FLOP's Hawkers are looking a bit dated (although they do have some newer 800XPCs) and the Legacy 450s would be a natural replacement for the 800XPs. With that said, I have heard that Ricci wants to retrofit the older Beechjets with PL21 and new engines - perhaps he will just retrofit the older Hawker 800XPs with PL21, etc. to save money...

2nd half of 2012 (if things proceed according to plan - and they never do) is not that far away and deals will need to be made sooner than later...

 

[gutshotdraw]

I would not be surprised to see NetJets move this way in the future. Mr Sokol will cut only for so long. Eventually he will need to spend money and invest in the future of this company. If NetJets is to be an operationaly profitable business the days of buying new airplanes every 10,000 hours will come to an end. We need airplanes that can easily fly 1,000 hours a year for more than a decade. Embraer builds these airplanes to be utilized in a fractional operation, ie. high time and high cycle. We all know that Cessna and Hawker Beechcraft build a good airplane but it is designed for about 400 hours a year max. That makes a 10 year old NetJets airplane 20 years old if it were flying in a true corporate flight department.

In my opinion during the next 15 years NetJets will be down to 5 fleet types. There will be a small cabin, (CJ4 or Phenom 300) two mid-size, (two of these three XL, Sovereign, X, Legacy 450 and 550) a super mid-size, (G250) and a large cabin. (G450, GV, G550). The reason I think the Legacy 450 and 550 might be the midsize airplanes of choice is they have the same engines, HTF 7500E, and from the pictures the same flight deck. That would probably mean a common type which equals more flexibility. You then could have 6 different airplanes requiring 4 type ratings. I think somebody told me that currently we have 15 different airplanes requiring 14 seperate type ratings.

I can't speak as to the future of any NJA fleet types but I expect the classic G-V's to be gone within 18-24 months. Just not enough of them to make it worth keeping around. As soon as the market rebounds at all, I figure the company will unload them as quickly as they can. I'm guessing the drawdown on G-IVSP's will take considerably longer.

 

[Willy21]

I agree with you, I was just trying to point out that airplanes with common type ratings would be a big plus going forward. I could see the G450/550 and any other airplane that carries the GV type as being a good fit for the company as the strive for operational profits.

How many GV, 550 and 450 are there?

 

[Sparse]

Heard from a FLOPS salesman that they are looking for a replacement for the Hawker 800xp. If the Phenom 300 works out good they are considering the Legacy 450.
The rumor is that Embraer has money tied in with HIG who still owns a share of FLOPS.

But until they show up on the ramp this is all speculation.

I heard that Emmbraer is in talks to buy Cessna. Source; Jack Pelton's barber.

 

[johnsonrod]

Mistyped - sorry

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