doh
Jump seat shrink
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2003
- Posts
- 4,017
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
New Delta TA - Part 1
- Thread starter av8n
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
doh
Jump seat shrink
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2003
- Posts
- 4,017
1. The amendment to 1.H.2 to start.
2. Allowing management to narrowly define meanings so that they will never pay any profit sharing. But then again, I believe with all my heart that management universally acts in bad faith any time you have a profit sharing arrangement. They will ALWAYS and in ALL WAYS lie to keep your share.
3. The EMB rate. Although you have to concede some thing to get those jets on the property, there is no reason to go that far when your scope is not protected any way.JMO.
4. 75% pay for sick and 100% deduction from bank? WTFO.
5. And last but not least, termination of your plan with out the termination of the management plan. As long as there is money to fund theirs', you should insist on the funding of yours.
2. Allowing management to narrowly define meanings so that they will never pay any profit sharing. But then again, I believe with all my heart that management universally acts in bad faith any time you have a profit sharing arrangement. They will ALWAYS and in ALL WAYS lie to keep your share.
3. The EMB rate. Although you have to concede some thing to get those jets on the property, there is no reason to go that far when your scope is not protected any way.JMO.
4. 75% pay for sick and 100% deduction from bank? WTFO.
5. And last but not least, termination of your plan with out the termination of the management plan. As long as there is money to fund theirs', you should insist on the funding of yours.
General
First let me make clear that my remarks have nothing to do with the quality of your TA or how you should vote. I am not for it nor am I against it. That is a decision that can and should be made only by Delta pilots; period.
First – What the AA pilots and the EGL pilots did is not the same. They made an agreement [flow through] with each other, before the fact, in which they both agreed to a procedure that each thought beneficial at the time. Whether it was a good agreement or a bad agreement is irrelevant. It was an agreement made with mutual consent. It was not the unilateral imposition of onerous “rules” by one group against another.
What Heavy Set proposed would be an abrogation of seniority. Seniority is not an end in itself. It exists for the purpose of providing specified rights to the pilot that holds it. Those rights are contractually specified. Any attempt to remove them abrogates the pilots’ seniority if it is not consensual. When it is consensual it is predatory and undoubtedly the result of coercion. No one in his right mind would agree to that if his arm was not being “twisted” or if he were not being offered an bribe. You know it and I know it.
If I came to your airline and took a left seat that prevents you from upgrading in your normal sequence; that is abrogation of your seniority. I wonder how you would react if someone attempted to do that to you. Would you think it was OK because the ALPA thinks it is OK? What number I have on your list after I’ve done it is irrelevant. A promotion that bypasses a qualified senior pilot in favor of a junior pilot abrogates the senior pilots’ seniority. In addition, it costs that particular senior pilot a financial penalty; a direct loss of earnings for an indefinite period. No amount of “spin” can alter that fact. Seniority Numbers have no meaning unless they can be used.
The ALPA’s actions in this regard have served to intentionally and willfully abrogate the seniority of every First Officer in the affected airlines that is denied his normal progression as a consequence. Those who seek to do it and those who support it should be ashamed of themselves.
Could it be done? Yes, it could be done and it has been done. That doesn’t change what it is, i.e., blatant seniority theft. It also does not relieve ALPA’s obligation to represent its members fairly, to bargain in good faith, and not in an arbitrary and discriminatory fashion. If violates the Duty of Fair Representation that is required by law.
What amazes me is that some of you “mainline” people actually believe that you have some sort of entitlement that makes this behavior A-OK. You would never permit “us” to do it to you but you think it just fine that you do it to us whenever you feel like it. On top of that the “union” officially supports your position and aids and abets your actions. That’s insane!
I’m not a spokesperson for anyone, especially for airlines where I don’t work and have never worked. Even here at Comair, I am not 100% certain what the pilots would do if such a thing was attempted on this property. But, I do not believe they would ever agree to the placement of foreign pilots into the captain seats of aircraft operated by Comair.
Comair pilots have a contract with Comair. When Delta acquired Comair it was obligated to assume, recognize and honor that contract, which it did. It has since been renewed and the provisions governing seniority and filling of vacancies have NOT been removed from the contract. Therefore, Comair pilots now have a contract with Delta even though it is through Comair.
The Delta pilots are free to make whatever agreement they choose with Delta Air Lines. However, nothing in any of those agreements can void the contract of the Comair pilots. Simply put, you cannot put Delta pilots into the left seat of any aircraft operated by Comair, without the express consent of the Comair pilots. Neither can Delta Air Lines even though they are the sole owners of the shell corporation called Comair.
If you cannot do that at Comair, a company wholly owned by DAL, you certainly have no right to do it at any company that Delta does not own. Nevertheless, you apparently think that you do. Ludicrous!
Yes, I know that Mesa pilots, PSA pilots and CHQ pilots all agreed to allow USAir pilots to take their seniority. I believe they were coerced into doing that, directly or indirectly, by the Air Line Pilots Association. Each had a different “reason” for doing it and all of those “reasons” were intentionally created by the ALPA. I believe such action on the part of the ALPA violates Federal law. Will ALPA get away with it at those companies? Probably yes; because the pilots at those airlines were not wise enough to refuse to agree to the practice and allowed themselves to be duped. Be that as it may, the practice was, is and remains an abomination.
The management of any DCI carrier can agree to whatever terms it pleases in its contract with DAL. However, should that agreement violate the terms of the applicable Collective Bargaining Agreement(s), legal action would ensue.
The persons harmed would bring the legal action to protect their individual interests. That is both prudent and proper.
Those are separate issues and it happens that, in my opinion, you are wrong. There is only ONE collective bargaining agent, and it represents both of us. Who physically does the talking at the table does so at the direction of the ALPA and cannot act without the authority of the ALPA. Your MEC (or my MEC) are NOT legal entities; they are agents of the ALPA. Who they negotiate with and when is determined by the ALPA. Therefore, the ALPA is responsible for its decisions (and will be held accountable for them).
Yes, the Comair contract should contain better Scope provisions. Whether those provisions are negotiated with Comair’s puppet management or with the owners of Comair, i.e., Delta Air Lines, Inc. is irrelevant, provided the terms are accepted by Delta Air Lines, Inc. When Delta purchased Comair it assumed the Comair pilots’ CBA and for as long as it owns Comair, it must honor that contract. If and when the Air Line Pilots Association willfully and intentionally prevents that from happening in order to afford preferential treatment to the pilots of another airline, it violates its Duty of Fair Representation.
The ALPA has no duty to the REP/CHQ pilots. However, it did and does have a duty to the Comair pilots, the ASA pilots, the Mesa pilots, the PSA pilots, the PDT pilots and the ALG and TSA pilots. The evidence is clear that the ALPA has not only neglected that duty but has intentionally refused to comply with it. Any labor union or business that conducts itself in that manner is subject to legal action for relief of the injury that it causes, and to preclude such action in the future.
When someone is deprived of his rights by another person or entity and fails to seek legal redress, that person is foolish. When a person voluntarily permits himself to be abused, that person is either ignorant or stupid, or both.
First let me make clear that my remarks have nothing to do with the quality of your TA or how you should vote. I am not for it nor am I against it. That is a decision that can and should be made only by Delta pilots; period.
General Lee said:
First – What the AA pilots and the EGL pilots did is not the same. They made an agreement [flow through] with each other, before the fact, in which they both agreed to a procedure that each thought beneficial at the time. Whether it was a good agreement or a bad agreement is irrelevant. It was an agreement made with mutual consent. It was not the unilateral imposition of onerous “rules” by one group against another.
What Heavy Set proposed would be an abrogation of seniority. Seniority is not an end in itself. It exists for the purpose of providing specified rights to the pilot that holds it. Those rights are contractually specified. Any attempt to remove them abrogates the pilots’ seniority if it is not consensual. When it is consensual it is predatory and undoubtedly the result of coercion. No one in his right mind would agree to that if his arm was not being “twisted” or if he were not being offered an bribe. You know it and I know it.
If I came to your airline and took a left seat that prevents you from upgrading in your normal sequence; that is abrogation of your seniority. I wonder how you would react if someone attempted to do that to you. Would you think it was OK because the ALPA thinks it is OK? What number I have on your list after I’ve done it is irrelevant. A promotion that bypasses a qualified senior pilot in favor of a junior pilot abrogates the senior pilots’ seniority. In addition, it costs that particular senior pilot a financial penalty; a direct loss of earnings for an indefinite period. No amount of “spin” can alter that fact. Seniority Numbers have no meaning unless they can be used.
The ALPA’s actions in this regard have served to intentionally and willfully abrogate the seniority of every First Officer in the affected airlines that is denied his normal progression as a consequence. Those who seek to do it and those who support it should be ashamed of themselves.
Could it be done? Yes, it could be done and it has been done. That doesn’t change what it is, i.e., blatant seniority theft. It also does not relieve ALPA’s obligation to represent its members fairly, to bargain in good faith, and not in an arbitrary and discriminatory fashion. If violates the Duty of Fair Representation that is required by law.
What amazes me is that some of you “mainline” people actually believe that you have some sort of entitlement that makes this behavior A-OK. You would never permit “us” to do it to you but you think it just fine that you do it to us whenever you feel like it. On top of that the “union” officially supports your position and aids and abets your actions. That’s insane!
I’m not a spokesperson for anyone, especially for airlines where I don’t work and have never worked. Even here at Comair, I am not 100% certain what the pilots would do if such a thing was attempted on this property. But, I do not believe they would ever agree to the placement of foreign pilots into the captain seats of aircraft operated by Comair.
Comair pilots have a contract with Comair. When Delta acquired Comair it was obligated to assume, recognize and honor that contract, which it did. It has since been renewed and the provisions governing seniority and filling of vacancies have NOT been removed from the contract. Therefore, Comair pilots now have a contract with Delta even though it is through Comair.
The Delta pilots are free to make whatever agreement they choose with Delta Air Lines. However, nothing in any of those agreements can void the contract of the Comair pilots. Simply put, you cannot put Delta pilots into the left seat of any aircraft operated by Comair, without the express consent of the Comair pilots. Neither can Delta Air Lines even though they are the sole owners of the shell corporation called Comair.
If you cannot do that at Comair, a company wholly owned by DAL, you certainly have no right to do it at any company that Delta does not own. Nevertheless, you apparently think that you do. Ludicrous!
Yes, I know that Mesa pilots, PSA pilots and CHQ pilots all agreed to allow USAir pilots to take their seniority. I believe they were coerced into doing that, directly or indirectly, by the Air Line Pilots Association. Each had a different “reason” for doing it and all of those “reasons” were intentionally created by the ALPA. I believe such action on the part of the ALPA violates Federal law. Will ALPA get away with it at those companies? Probably yes; because the pilots at those airlines were not wise enough to refuse to agree to the practice and allowed themselves to be duped. Be that as it may, the practice was, is and remains an abomination.
The management of any DCI carrier can agree to whatever terms it pleases in its contract with DAL. However, should that agreement violate the terms of the applicable Collective Bargaining Agreement(s), legal action would ensue.
The persons harmed would bring the legal action to protect their individual interests. That is both prudent and proper.
Those are separate issues and it happens that, in my opinion, you are wrong. There is only ONE collective bargaining agent, and it represents both of us. Who physically does the talking at the table does so at the direction of the ALPA and cannot act without the authority of the ALPA. Your MEC (or my MEC) are NOT legal entities; they are agents of the ALPA. Who they negotiate with and when is determined by the ALPA. Therefore, the ALPA is responsible for its decisions (and will be held accountable for them).
Yes, the Comair contract should contain better Scope provisions. Whether those provisions are negotiated with Comair’s puppet management or with the owners of Comair, i.e., Delta Air Lines, Inc. is irrelevant, provided the terms are accepted by Delta Air Lines, Inc. When Delta purchased Comair it assumed the Comair pilots’ CBA and for as long as it owns Comair, it must honor that contract. If and when the Air Line Pilots Association willfully and intentionally prevents that from happening in order to afford preferential treatment to the pilots of another airline, it violates its Duty of Fair Representation.
The ALPA has no duty to the REP/CHQ pilots. However, it did and does have a duty to the Comair pilots, the ASA pilots, the Mesa pilots, the PSA pilots, the PDT pilots and the ALG and TSA pilots. The evidence is clear that the ALPA has not only neglected that duty but has intentionally refused to comply with it. Any labor union or business that conducts itself in that manner is subject to legal action for relief of the injury that it causes, and to preclude such action in the future.
When someone is deprived of his rights by another person or entity and fails to seek legal redress, that person is foolish. When a person voluntarily permits himself to be abused, that person is either ignorant or stupid, or both.
Last edited:
GrowASpine
Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2006
- Posts
- 21
frog_flyer
Caucasian Male
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2006
- Posts
- 483
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
frog_flyer said:
Have fun boys? We are in BK. No lying there. We didn't lose any work rules, at all, except check in for Hawaii flights is now 60 mins prior. The only part I didn't like was how they treated our furloughed pilots. That needs to be fixed, but everything else was not bad at all. Take a look at NW's TA.
Bye Bye--General Lee
warbirdfinder
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2004
- Posts
- 128
General Lee:
The only part I didn't like was how they treated our furloughed pilots. That needs to be fixed, but everything else was not bad at all.
Oh, I guess it slipped your mind that ALPA ageed to not oppose the pension termination, of course that was "not bad at all". It's only 5800 retired guys that suffer, nearly the same number of active pilots.
Of course you have sympathy for the furloughed pilots, but screw'em, we got our contract. And the retired pilots, you have been bitching forever that they "screwed you" for years and "got theirs" when they retired, so you must absolutely elated.
The only part I didn't like was how they treated our furloughed pilots. That needs to be fixed, but everything else was not bad at all.
Oh, I guess it slipped your mind that ALPA ageed to not oppose the pension termination, of course that was "not bad at all". It's only 5800 retired guys that suffer, nearly the same number of active pilots.
Of course you have sympathy for the furloughed pilots, but screw'em, we got our contract. And the retired pilots, you have been bitching forever that they "screwed you" for years and "got theirs" when they retired, so you must absolutely elated.
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
warbirdfinder said:
Easy now, I am talking about what is left for the current pilots. I never said "$crew the retired guys." I think the pension fiasco is terrible, for you and other companies. Atleast you got a chance to get part of yours and leave, rather than stay and get nothing and not be able to make up that half that you took. Look at the NW guys, they did not get that chance. How many senior pilots in their late 50s are sweating bullets over there? A pension promise is just that, a promise, that could be broken---as we are now finding out. Don't blame the rest of us, blame the people who really are at fault, management.
Bye Bye--General Lee
FlyinScotsman
Left-Handed Gear Jockey
- Joined
- May 27, 2005
- Posts
- 189
Delta And The General
The 12 year captain rate for the EMB-190/CRJ-900 will be $95.70 on June 1,
2006 and subject to the above adjustments.
• The 12 year captain rate for the EMB-195 will be $112.50 on June 1, 2006 and subject to
the above adjustments.
Horizon 12 year captain (70 seat) CRJ700: $100.67
Horizon 12 year captain (soon to be 76 seat)Q400 TURBOPROP!!!: $92.62
But it still not that bad General???? Yeah right!!!
We are starting our own negotiations right now and you and the other morons that agree to those ridiculous rates are going to make it tough to keep our current pay rates. I know you are mighty Delta and should not be concerned with anybody but yourselves, but try to think of the rest of us please.
BTW this POS is going to pass 50.1 BELIEVE IT, LIVE IT.
THANK YOU DELTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
General Lee said:
The 12 year captain rate for the EMB-190/CRJ-900 will be $95.70 on June 1,
2006 and subject to the above adjustments.
• The 12 year captain rate for the EMB-195 will be $112.50 on June 1, 2006 and subject to
the above adjustments.
Horizon 12 year captain (70 seat) CRJ700: $100.67
Horizon 12 year captain (soon to be 76 seat)Q400 TURBOPROP!!!: $92.62
But it still not that bad General???? Yeah right!!!
We are starting our own negotiations right now and you and the other morons that agree to those ridiculous rates are going to make it tough to keep our current pay rates. I know you are mighty Delta and should not be concerned with anybody but yourselves, but try to think of the rest of us please.
BTW this POS is going to pass 50.1 BELIEVE IT, LIVE IT.
THANK YOU DELTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited:
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
FlyinScotsman said:
Expect your rates to go down, but not necessarily because of us. It all started at Mesa of course, and then progressed to SkyWest, who accepted one pay rate for all jets up to 99 seats. Then Jetblue came up with the new 100 seat benchmark, and the rest have to follow it seems. USAir/AWA grabbed the EMB190s from CHQ, and set another rate, a bit higher than Jetblue's. Then, to stay competitive and being in BK at the same time, we came up with a rate. It would seem your rates are a target now, and you probably know that Horizon will be tempting your pilots with possible E190 or CR9 orders too, and those rates will be lower than Jetblue's I bet. And, you will probably take it, but then blame somebody else.
If your company is not in BK, then you can blame yourself. Don't blame people for having to fight to keep anything while a judge is watching.
Bye Bye--General Lee
737 Pylt
Um....Floats anyone??
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2003
- Posts
- 3,085
FlyinScotsman said:
You're welcome.......
uke: I think this TA is a POS as well, and will vote no, but let me ask you this. How do you think the DL pilots would have fared with a contract shoved up our collective a$$es (as this thing is going to be). Also, why aren't you yelling, bettter yet, screaming at the JB pilots, they were the first ones to fly the E190 at a major airline!
Maybe if you would stop worrying about what the DL pilots are taking concessions for, you should compare your turboprop pay to other regionals flying similar rates like Piedmont, SKY, ASA. Oh yeah, I forgot, its a heck of a lot easier to blame the DL pilots!
Unfrigginbelievable!
737
Diesel-9
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 1, 2005
- Posts
- 527
Well said General. NWA and DAL got hit with all the domino's that have been falling for a long time. Hard to understand this late in the game how anyone can point a finger now. Especially at a major. I have been thru 2 strikes that cost me over $10,000 that help raise the bar for other carriers at that time. Which should have helped raise the bar at the airlinks and regionals etc. This overall demise started with CAL's 2 X CH-11's as that was the beginning of the work rule and quality of life destruction of this industry. You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. Having read most of the 1000 pages of CH-11 proceedings, labor doesn't have much to even negotiate with a judge in control when everyone else has caved in.
Last edited:
FlyinScotsman
Left-Handed Gear Jockey
- Joined
- May 27, 2005
- Posts
- 189
Yes it is because of you and the rest of the industry in BK!!
I don't need the history lesson. I know how those rates came to be, but you are now part of the problem. By your previous statement you don't see a problem with those rates. I have been on flightinfo long enough to have seen you come down on people at JetBlue for those rates. Now you are all fine with it as long as Delta gets to fly them right? I hope you vote this mother down too. Maybe for other reasons that you have.
We will fight to keep our rates, we are just starting down the road and you and Delta are NOT HELPING! We have a long way to go, we have a lot of positives on our side. We are not in BK or even close. We turned a profit last year. It is going to be a long hard fight. You and the others in BK are giving our management a lot of nice tools to erode what we have.
Once again THANK YOU!!!!
General Lee said:
I don't need the history lesson. I know how those rates came to be, but you are now part of the problem. By your previous statement you don't see a problem with those rates. I have been on flightinfo long enough to have seen you come down on people at JetBlue for those rates. Now you are all fine with it as long as Delta gets to fly them right? I hope you vote this mother down too. Maybe for other reasons that you have.
We will fight to keep our rates, we are just starting down the road and you and Delta are NOT HELPING! We have a long way to go, we have a lot of positives on our side. We are not in BK or even close. We turned a profit last year. It is going to be a long hard fight. You and the others in BK are giving our management a lot of nice tools to erode what we have.
Once again THANK YOU!!!!
GrowASpine
Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2006
- Posts
- 21
enuffalready
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2005
- Posts
- 607
At the very least, Delta pilots should be given the left seats on any INCREMENTAL E170/CR9 aircraft.
Quote heavyset
And you wonder why you guys are so F'd up now?
If you get those planes at mainline then you can staff them however you want, but to insist that a DELTA guy should be given the left seat of anything just exposes your problems for what they are
You guys were too good to fly RJ's at all years ago and you didn't learn your lesson the first time. So now you are too good to fly RJ's in the right seat. A plane is a plane is a plane. Every plane at ASA/DELTA/COMAIR is there because mainline negotiated it, when are you guys gonna learn.
Gee, where do I sign up to negotiate anything with you guys....
Quote heavyset
And you wonder why you guys are so F'd up now?
If you get those planes at mainline then you can staff them however you want, but to insist that a DELTA guy should be given the left seat of anything just exposes your problems for what they are
You guys were too good to fly RJ's at all years ago and you didn't learn your lesson the first time. So now you are too good to fly RJ's in the right seat. A plane is a plane is a plane. Every plane at ASA/DELTA/COMAIR is there because mainline negotiated it, when are you guys gonna learn.
Gee, where do I sign up to negotiate anything with you guys....
Last edited:
737 Pylt
Um....Floats anyone??
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2003
- Posts
- 3,085
There are a lot of reason for that!enuffalready said:
Thanks, we will staff them as we please. I am no fan of J4J. If I wanted to work for DCI, I would have applied to them
Its only an rj because you (or whoever) says it is.....Was the DC-9 an rj? I don't think so! I was not on property when the 50 seat rj went to DCI, but hind sight, who would have thought that the industry would be making a "90-100 seat regional jet?"
www.alpa.org
737
michael707767
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,640
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
