New Delta TA 06/2015

[jonjuan]

Its funny how we were so angry under contract 2012 that 40 percent said no, me included. Now, everybody is just thrilled to work more years under a contract they didn't like. What changed?

Profit sharing

 

[jonjuan]

Its funny how we were so angry under contract 2012 that 40 percent said no, me included. Now, everybody is just thrilled to work more years under a contract they didn't like. What changed?

Profit sharing.

 

[Flopgut]

We are like crack hos for profit sharing. One day, we won't be as profitable. My rep told me something that makes sense (so that means GL doesn't get it). The profit sharing is converted into an hourly rate so if the turn comes, we still get paid...WELL.

Like the line in Goodfellas....when management comes looking for help in the downturn.
Business bad? F U Pay Me
Had a fire? F U Pay me

Not the deal I was thinking we would get, but after seeing the road show I think its a yes for me.

You should consider a no vote imho. I like the good fellas reference, however DALAPA is the one doing the paying. When RA is making a profit you're going to vote to let him take profit sharing away. And when he's not making a profit he offers you profit sharing... vote "no" = FU pay me..

 

[PCL_128]

Ever? Take 2004 and add inflation. Now tell us the answer.

I never mentioned inflation-adjusted numbers, so why would I have added that? Inflation adjusted restoration is simply not achievable at this point in time (and probably never).

 

[redflyer65]

The best fact based post over on APC is by Jon Lewis, Captain Rep.

A lengthy letter that really dissects every angle. I won't post the whole thing here, but here's a summary statement that interesting...


At best, this TA is underwhelming in value in this environment and contains a number of truly ugly concessions that should not be for sale at any price. We should not support a mediocre deal and squander the best negotiating environment we have ever seen. No deal is better than a bad deal, or one that harms the Delta pilots. This deal may be on time, but it is way off target!


Well stated.

 

[PCL_128]

Seems like emotional nonsense to me, but to each his own.

 

[redflyer65]

The full text was very un-emotional. Dissectted the TA in the good areas and the bad. Far too many concessions, hence the summary above.

 

[Dornier 335]

The full text was very un-emotional. Dissectted the TA in the good areas and the bad. Far too many concessions, hence the summary above.

Here's a link for all those interested.

 

[taxicabdriver]

Anyone know the details of the hit on sick leave? Going to a use it or lose it system? I've read a lot about the loss in that area but haven't seen any details on how it's worse.....we have a lot of guys that have large sick banks and are afraid of them changing to a use it or lose it system and getting nothing for carrying a large sick cap basically as extra insurance thru their careers

 

[nwaf16dude]

We have always had a use it or lose it system, and that doesn't really change with the new contract. We get varying amounts of sick leave, up to 240 hours until the 19 year point, then 270 over 19. What's changing is this... We had a clause that gave us 100 hours per year with no questions asked unless you were out for more than 14 days in a row. They are changing that to 14 days of missed work with no questions asked. Then they are adding several layers of administrative crap (doctor's notes, medical record releases, etc) all designed to make it less convenient to use your sick leave above the initial 14 days worth. They claim that we have a bunch of guys that are abusing sick leave and that our sick leave usage went up 30% since we signed the last contract. Cracking down on sick leave use was apparently the company's #1 priority in this negotiation. Lots more details available on-line, but I'm too lazy to type them.

 

[Flopgut]

Didn't NWA ALPA face a lawsuit or injunction over increased sick leave use about 15-20 years ago? if I remember correctly, the judge agreed with the union's point that if pilots work more, sick leave will go up. Everybody is working more these days, for a variety of reasons... Can DALALPA use that instance now in response to this attempted grab on mgmts part?

 

[PCL_128]

That argument doesn't work when everyone else's sick leave use throughout the industry is staying flat while yours is increasing 30%.

 

[Flopgut]

Sure it does. It's only staying flat temporarily. The full view needs to be considered. PBS, mergers, age 65, etc have skewed the numbers in the short term. We will all be tending ailments and making health maintenance efforts in the years to come. (It's one of the many "falling knives" we have to manage) ALPA needs to go after the 800lb gorillas and not agree to forfeit basic Constitutional [privacy] rights. Big picture: The need to use leave is going up over the coming 20 years. Not down.

 

[PCL_128]

You need to take a statistics course.

 

[jonjuan]

I never mentioned inflation-adjusted numbers, so why would I have added that? Inflation adjusted restoration is simply not achievable at this point in time (and probably never).

You wouldn't have added that as it makes your argument of best rates in history laughable. dollar for dollar, buying power is 25% greater in 2004 than today.
You like the dalpa me it seems, take a view point and then work the facts to best defend the position. "Why yes, pilots, it may be dogsh1t, but it has chunks of corn in it and if you don't eat it, you'll certainly die. Now how will your wife and kids survive? Therefore, we highly endorse that you eat it".

 

[jonjuan]

Red has never negotiated anything. He's your typical bomb thrower who stands on the sidelines and pretends that he's an expert without ever having to put up or shut up.

Just give it a few years. In 3-5 years, his beloved SWAPA will have a TA with pay rates lower than DAL, code share giveaways, and still just a 401k match.

And yet their pilots will STILL make 30% more and be home more days than the average dal pilot.

 

[jonjuan]

That argument doesn't work when everyone else's sick leave use throughout the industry is staying flat while yours is increasing 30%.

There you go again with the spin. Having a sick bank forces people to fly sick as they are saving it for later or what most do, to cash it in. $10,000 bucks says if dalpa said "Well, great. We'll just instead switch to the sick bank everyone else in the industry uses" the company would say no effing way.

 

[jonjuan]

I never mentioned inflation-adjusted numbers, so why would I have added that? Inflation adjusted restoration is simply not achievable at this point in time (and probably never).

Ok, Einstein, try this. Assume pay from 2004 was neither reduced nor increased throughout 11 years. Now the company says, "nope, sorry, no raises, even after 11 years." Now how about real reduced buying power due to inflation? A reverse time value of money, if you will? Or did you not take any classes in economics in junior college?

 

[HowardBorden]

That argument doesn't work when everyone else's sick leave use throughout the industry is staying flat while yours is increasing 30%.

The argument that does work and is clearly the reason for increased sick leave at Delta or any other legacy is an older work force. Delta will retire nearly half its pilots by 2022. That means nearly 50% of the pilot group is 58 years old or older. Obviously a work group that has a larger percentage of its members in their late 50's to mid 60's will use more sick time. Younger pilots are less susceptible to illness and injury than older ones, that is an unavoidable truth. This industry is facing the oldest workforce in its history.

You claim that everyone else's sick use throughout the industry is staying flat, but that simply isn't the case. I believe one could point to statements from nearly every management team claiming that sick leave is on the rise. As a matter of fact nearly every management group will claim that their employees use of sick time is higher than their peers if not the highest in the industry.

It simply boggles my mind that a management shill such as yourself could have ever claimed to be any sort of pilot advocate or risen to elected union office. The ALPA spin machine is pushing for a full court press on this issue.

 

[PCL_128]

Ok, Einstein, try this. Assume pay from 2004 was neither reduced nor increased throughout 11 years. Now the company says, "nope, sorry, no raises, even after 11 years." Now how about real reduced buying power due to inflation? A reverse time value of money, if you will? Or did you not take any classes in economics in junior college?

You can bitch to high heaven about inflation all you want, but the NMB simply isn't on board with inflation-adjusted restoration. Welcome to reality.

 

[Flopgut]

You need to take a statistics course.

I took one. I learned one can make statistics bend in any direction they want.

 

[Flopgut]

You can bitch to high heaven about inflation all you want, but the NMB simply isn't on board with inflation-adjusted restoration. Welcome to reality.

Possible scenario: The NMB might not have enough pilots to speak to about the issue. Simple supply and demand will get them on board. That may be 10 years down the road.... I know if I don't see inflation adjusted wages in that time frame?? I'm punching out just like you.

 

[dbrownie]

We are still six months early and our union wants to give concessions to the company...
now guys are in a panic.

Relax people.

 

[StopNTSing]

65-35 NO! WOO-HOO!!

I bow to your double-breasted studliness, gents! Thanks to all of you (yeah even the General if he's not a poser) for showing the rest of us how to answer the bean-counting morons that have taken over our industry. They've talked themselves into believing we pilots are a bunch of pansies who are just happy to have a job.

WELL GUESS AGAIN RICHARD, GARY, DOUG AND JIM! THE CONCESSION STAND IS CLOSED!!!

P.S. The second offer may not be better, but the third one certainly will be! :beer:

 

[redflyer65]

Well done guys. No need for concessions in this environment.

I can't believe the MEC Chairman tried to sell this POS.

 

[General Lee]

65-35 NO! WOO-HOO!!

I bow to your double-breasted studliness, gents! Thanks to all of you (yeah even the General if he's not a poser) for showing the rest of us how to answer the bean-counting morons that have taken over our industry. They've talked themselves into believing we pilots are a bunch of pansies who are just happy to have a job.

WELL GUESS AGAIN RICHARD, GARY, DOUG AND JIM! THE CONCESSION STAND IS CLOSED!!!

P.S. The second offer may not be better, but the third one certainly will be! :beer:

Yeah, PCL just dropped a load. The current contract is just fine compared to a bad one that is rushed.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

You really think I care about your contact that much, Genital? You make me laugh.

 

[General Lee]

You really think I care about your contact that much, Genital? You make me laugh.

Yes, yes I do PCL. It drives you crazy, and that makes me laugh, you Lee Choke wannabe.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

You continue to make me laugh, Genital! The corndogs were always right about you, apparently.

 

[Freebrd]

Ooh, touchy touchy. You two be nice now ya heah!