New CS Rumors

[bailout]

It's more of the fact that they can just change whatever they want, whenever they want, without any 'input' from the pilot group.

 

[On Your Six]

Right now 7777 speculation is running wild with this memo. Just take a good look at the proposed basing situation. Everyone got very upset and at the end of it all we are right back where we started. If you get a Sunday start schedule under the new system you will start Sundays and end Saturdays, effectively never having a weekend off. It will probably go very very junior as no one really wants this schedule. I don't even think CS knows exactly where they want to go with this. They appear to very much be in union prevention mode and if they sense this will put the pilot group over the edge I would not be surprised to see the Sunday starts disappear. As always my suggestion to people is an email to the chief pilot. I have sent one already, if you got time to post then you have time to let the boss know what your thoughts are. The company does, however, have a right to seek to be profitable. If this will save money and is awarded in a very straight-forward, fair, seniority based system then I think the company should reserve the right to try to have more efficient and cost effective scheduling so long as it does not compromise safety.

If this is the case, then CS will need to change its promotional video talking about the importance of providing pilots with schedules that don't adversely impact their social lives (you'll hear the line about half way through):

http://www.citationshares.com/about/video.aspx

 

[SKYLAWYER]

If this is the case, then CS will need to change its promotional video talking about the importance of providing pilots with schedules that don't adversely impact their social lives (you'll hear the line about half way through):

http://www.citationshares.com/about/video.aspx

The same video that talks about seniority systems breeding mediocrity? That thing when out the window months ago. Could possibly be a point guys can make to the company.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

FWIW, and I don't want to turn this into a union debate either, the contract for NJA under section 19.2(E) states that no more than 15% of the 7&7 starts (company wide) can not be on a Sunday for that reason. I was on Sunday starts for about a year. I hated it.

I thought you guys might be able to use that if you hate the Sunday as much as I did.

Safe flights,

Thanks fischman, nothing wrong with pointing out facts for discussion and we appreciate it very much. My understanding is that "IF" we utilize Sunday starts is will be with a much smaller percentage of the pilot group. The point I try to make sometimes is that people feel that with representation 0% of our pilots would start on the weekends. That just seems unrealistic to me. Glad to hear you have your weekends back. One major concern I have for junior guys is that if we slow hiring they could be in a crappy schedule for much longer than anticipated.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

It's more of the fact that they can just change whatever they want, whenever they want, without any 'input' from the pilot group.

This is the only real valid argument I have heard for seeking representation. If this is what bothers you then sending in your card will give you the result that you are looking for. I don't think it will change much about what has happened with us so far, but it would give the pilots a voice in the process.

 

[7777]

You have to pay your dues as the new guy/gal. That is going to be the case with any job. In the military, civilian world, it doesn't matter. The 'cherry' has to know he/she will have to do this. No problems there for me.

CS appears to always be implementing ways to improve, while remaining profitable and doing it in a way that considers the outcome for everyone. I REALLY like that.

I am fairly certain the folks in management have their reasons for this. I enjoy watching this company adjust for the economy, growth and all while working with their people. This would be an interesting company to cover in a college business class.

 

[On Your Six]

Not providing a few full weekends to pilots per month would run contrary to what they say about offering competitive QOL. Simple as that.

 

[flagshipper]

CS appears to always be implementing ways to improve, while remaining profitable and doing it in a way that considers the outcome for everyone. I REALLY like that.

While I am sure CSM appreciates your praise we are NOT profitable and never have been. They say by 2009 we might be breaking even. They are in union prevention mode and in NJ wannabe mode sort of rolled up in one. They are businessman and they want to make money but they, like most airline mgmt, know unhappy employees can cost the company a lot more money in the end.

 

[7777]

I am praising the company for trying to improve. If they are in the union prevention mode, oh well. They are still doing this without a union and that, in my mind, shows a company that is trying. Can't fault them for that.

They raised your pay, lowered your duty day, ect.. They also lowered the bases they are hiring into but haven't eliminated them altogether. The fact some may have to work weekends for awhile is ruffling feathers...understandably but you have to pay the price to remain effective in this economy and that, is what I 'perceive' is happening.

I do believe the NetJets folks have raised the bar for everyone and they are reacting....can't fault them for that. I am unsure if they have needed that type of proding (spelling?) in the past to do the same, have they?

What is it that has you concerned? I have searched some of your other posts and suspect you are wanting to fly for NetJets. What is it that seperates CS and their efforts to make life better from NetJets, in your opinion.

For the record, I have spent the last 20+ years in the military and haven't got a dog in this fight but have pretty much made up my mind CS is a company I would LOVE to work for when I do retire. Everyone of their pilots that I have met on the road has been very nice, loved the job and very accomodating when I have asked to view their airplanes. The company seems to be trying to improve and all without the pushing of a union (good or bad, that is speculation for me).

Just curious.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Not providing a few full weekends to pilots per month would run contrary to what they say about offering competitive QOL. Simple as that.

Explain to me how exactly it is not competitive. Find me another Fractional that is competitive in pay and benefits that is currently providing full weekends to all the pilots.

 

[On Your Six]

Explain to me how exactly it is not competitive. Find me another Fractional that is competitive in pay and benefits that is currently providing full weekends to all the pilots.

I know some NJA pilots who don't start on weekends - it depends upon seniority and fleet. I suppose you are correct in that some pilots will fly on weekends at NJA. Regardless, it goes against your management's explicit statement that pilot QOL is important to them. Not having complete weekends may be more efficient for them but it is a lame policy. Again, they should really change the pilot-related promotional video that talks about preserving weekends for pilots as quickly as possible (so as to not mislead applicants)...

 

[7777]

If 5% or less of the pilots have to start and stop weekends (depending if others with more seniority don't want to) that still leaves 95% or more of the pilots that would not have to start/stop on weekends. I think the video would still be very accurate.

What I am really enjoying about this whole debate is how nice it is going to be if I get a post military job working at CS. If having to start/stop a tour on a weekend for a year is 'tough' duty, sign my ass up! I can't wait.

Are you feeling me CS?

 

[dime line]

If 5% or less of the pilots have to start and stop weekends (depending if others with more seniority don't want to) that still leaves 95% or more of the pilots that would not have to start/stop on weekends. I think the video would still be very accurate.

What I am really enjoying about this whole debate is how nice it is going to be if I get a post military job working at CS. If having to start/stop a tour on a weekend for a year is 'tough' duty, sign my ass up! I can't wait.

Are you feeling me CS?

Nice, do some work on civ aviation before you leave!

 

[7777]

We actually operate out of a civilian airfield and see what the 135 and 91 guys are doing. My old commander (now retired) is flying 91 stuff now. I see their flights, talk to them daily. I guess if you are saying it is 'rough' because you have to work weekends for awhile, then I am up for that tough life as long as the other benefits of being an employee with CS still apply.

I do like my coffee black though.

 

[flagshipper]

7777, I will admit CS is a top 10 aviation job and the best job I have ever had. I just see this very often and I hate to single you guys out but it always seems to be military guys who have little to no experience in the 91/135 world. They are completely one sided and refuse to find fault in their "dream" civvy job. I am just asking you to be objective and don't put all your eggs in one basket. Also with the CJ1s out the door we are a little overstaffed and recruiting said there will only be about 15-20 newhires the rest of the year so your odds are better at some other fracs.Of course this could all change depending on when you retire.

The weekend start thing is not a big issue because as stated it would only affect a few pilots who have low relative seniority. What the real problem is all this will be implemented without ANY input from the pilot group. They have not asked us in the least what kind of alternative schedules we would like or what start days people prefer. NJ found through a survey that 15 percent of pilots prefer weekend starts so that is their contractual limit of sunday starts. Crazy thought. Ask the pilots!!

7777, As for your question what makes NJ better and why I am interested. 91k flying is by far the hardest flying I have ever done. I believe the number one priority for a frac is support. Pay is about the same at CS and NJ now but can you put a price on your ticket???? NJ has a dispatch department, provides meals so you aren't scrounging for food, transmits information in a timely effecient manner. These sound like small things but when your butt is on the line you have a little more support at NJ than the $8/hr flight followers we have at CS. You ask any captain at CS and that will be their biggest overall concern.

Well enough of my complaining oh and thank you for your service in the armed forces. Military pilots are the best in the world and I mean that. I hope it all works out for you.

 

[7777]

Flagshipper,

Nice post. I realize I don't have 91 or 135 experience at all. I do have plenty of friends doing it (one is a former commander) and they all do it out of the airfield we work out of. I hear, talk, watch all that goes on. I know the difference between good and bad support from flight operations as well as maintenance. I have had plenty of time to decide what I want and to be honest, it is CS. Wether I get it or not is another matter but for everything I want, they have it.

I personally don't want someone else filing my flight plans, planning my routes around weather, giving me my alternates, planning my meals, ect.. I have NEVER had anyone do that for me. I have been doing it myself for my whole flying career. Some who have never been in the military don't understand how we have operated or operate. Pilots, particularly the PIC is in charge of EVERYTHING from arranging our own hotels, meals, rental cars, diplomatic clearances, customs, ect.. I have been carrying the same lunch box with me in the airplane for 20+ years. We are doing it all and I LOVE IT. CS has you file your own flight plans, and seem to give the pilots some relative autonomy in their flight decision making...that is right down my alley. I guess I don't want someone sitting at a desk telling me where and how I am going to fly my mission. That, in my book is for me to decide, plan and execute.

Things I expect? I expect camraderie (spelling?) out of my fellow employees. I expect to have a GREAT time on the road with my PIC/Captain. I expect to learn from my PIC/Captain. I expect to be rewarded/appreciated for my hard work, by everyone and they will receive the same respect from me, ect..

I look forward to someday working for CS. I do not look forward to my last day in the military, even if I win Powerball or any other lotto. I LOVE IT! My decision to leave is going to strictly be a monetary one for getting my kids through college. My wife and I already have decided we would go back in if we found the civilian side is not what we wanted. I would NOT hesitate.

Anyways, that is where I am coming from. I know there are going to be plenty of guys/gals I fly with who will not understand my background and I will remain silent and nod my head when they complain about how rough they have it.

I hope one day you can get the job you really want. To be honest, I don't think there is any such thing as the perfect job.

Best of luck to you Flagshipper.

BTW, I love your honesty.

 

[Diesel]

I personally don't want someone else filing my flight plans, planning my routes around weather, giving me my alternates, planning my meals, ect.. I have NEVER had anyone do that for me. I have been doing it myself for my whole flying career. Some who have never been in the military don't understand how we have operated or operate.

Wait till you're humping 5 legs a day. You'll be glad you have the support to do the work for you.

 

[Mooneymite]

Dispatcher is your friend!

Wait till you're humping 5 legs a day. You'll be glad you have the support to do the work for you.

Amen!

Professional dispatchers can keep you out of trouble. They have access to the best flight planning tools and provide a "second opinion" when things get rushed.

They know what all those obscure NOTAM abreviations mean and look at the performance/weather long before you even know you're going to be flying the leg.

Not enjoying the benefits of a professional dispatcher would be analogous to the captain that doesn't understand the value of a co-pilot. It's all about CRM!

 

[Sparse]

The weekend start thing is not a big issue because as stated it would only affect a few pilots who have low relative seniority.

It's not a big issue unless you are one of those who will get the weekend start, when you came to work for this company planning on having every other weekend off and holidays off every other year. If you are one of those, it's a big issue.

What the real problem is all this will be implemented without ANY input from the pilot group. They have not asked us in the least what kind of alternative schedules we would like or what start days people prefer.

You are absolutely correct. I suggest letting them know how you feel now. Write, call, email, your ACP and JD.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

It's not a big issue unless you are one of those who will get the weekend start, when you came to work for this company planning on having every other weekend off and holidays off every other year. If you are one of those, it's a big issue.

What about the guys who came to work here planning on making 40K to start, lower 401K matches, training during off weeks, no written duty day rules, lower overtime pay, no OT unless you got home after 2 am on your last, should they be mad also? All of these things changed from the company they all signed up for. Lets go back to the way this was before and in exchange everyone can have weekends off again. Negotiations and marriage are all about compromise. You gained the abundance of items above for having a small number of crews work weekends for a limited time until their seniority can hold another schedule.