New CAL 737 Bases DEN / ORD

[sleeves]

The reason United has 1400 on furlough is because they gave up their scope. The reason work can be transferred from United to Cal is because the United contract allows it and Cal has some protections. To give any other reason for these short comings will lead to more pain in the future as the true reasons are forgotten. We must get a strong jcba that protects all of us!

 

[Flopgut]

We must get a strong jcba that protects all of us!

Amen! It would be nice to take a strike vote before the end of the year...

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The strike vote has been delayed by the union.

The unions seem to have no interest in resolving the JCBA.

Years of delay clearly indicate the union interest in achieving a deal. Lip service emails about union interest in a conclusion are excuses just as all the pilots who post a rebuttal.

 

[nimtz]

Ummmm, didn't Stivala and Panerello get the senior pilots at CAL an even better deal than their UAL counterparts? They "froze" the A fund while giving returning furloughs the same pay cut and having to pay for your own health insurance for the first 6 months. I really hope that if both l-cal and l-ual seniors think that the same snow job will happen again, they will be set straight as all will be gone by the time this thing actually gets ratified.

It is funny that PB is running for EWR rep claiming that senior dolts got bent over more then anyone else by '02. Must be tough when you've been a senior capt since your signed on for Frankie's New York Air...

 

[Scrapdog]

Management will simply turn back 757 leases on the UAL side of the fence to keep the UAL pilot population static - no furloughs and no recalls.

The fastest way to a JCBA is getting past all of the IT and other integration issues.

Mgt will turn back the 757 leases on the UAL side because they're old as hell, cannot be upgraded avionics wise, and cannot be used to fly to Europe.


http://crankyflier.com/2011/02/14/why-united-cant-use-its-own-757s-to-fly-to-europe/

 

[Flopgut]

Folks: I'm getting the feeling it's going to take years to get this done. The reality is UCON mgt has not returned major sections of the contract to the JNC and they aren't going to anytime soon. Even with major contract violations, the mediator isn't going to do their job. Under the RLA, we're second class citizens.

 

[Andy]

Folks: I'm getting the feeling it's going to take years to get this done. The reality is UCON mgt has not returned major sections of the contract to the JNC and they aren't going to anytime soon. Even with major contract violations, the mediator isn't going to do their job. Under the RLA, we're second class citizens.

UCON mgt is now pretty much former CAL mgt. Smisek continues to flush old UAL mgt out of the system. I don't view that as a bad thing at this point in time; UAL mgt wasn't the best and brightest.

If you, whatitdoing?, and other CAL pilots on this thread can separate SLI discussions (both overt and covert) from the topic at hand, perhaps we can discuss a reasonable end date to a JCBA. You guys chose to jump on my statements as having a SLI undertone - if not overtly, you certainly chose to respond in a manner to make a 'case' for why SLI should favor CAL pilots. SLI's off the table; it will be decided by arbitrators and both sides have lawyered up long ago. While CAL ALPA may hint that snapshots are a moving target, arbitrators have never allowed a snapshot to wander far from announced merger date. If you can find a snapshot anywhere beyond 6 months after announced merger date, please post it because I don't think it exists - I will admit that I'm wrong IF you are able to post a deviation from my statement.
It seems that some want to delve into voluntary furloughs on the UAL side of the fence while ignoring those on the CAL side of the fence that took advantage of similar programs. That's not a can of worms that I wish to open and would prefer to keep those discussions on hold until after a JCBA.

In my mind, the end date where management will beg for a JCBA is fairly clear. And while it isn't close at hand, it definitely isn't an open ended date. We can discuss this separately from SLI but I will not participate if there are overt/subtle SLI comments.

Footnote: I'm a tad more than halfway down the UAL furlough list; hired June 2000. I don't expect much more than 100 CAL pilots to be below me. If there are zero CAL pilots below me, I'd consider that to be a failure on the part of UAL ALPA's legal counsel. But I'm beyond the point where I care about 100 seniority slots; if you care about 100 slots, you need to get a life.
Both sides (CAL ALPA & UAL ALPA) lawyered up long ago and anyone discussing SLI at this time is simply engaging in public masturbation. It may be enjoyable to the one 'pounding his meat' but most observers find it distasteful. There are a few deltoids who enjoy watching this but I wouldn't classify their behavior as normal.

 

[Flopgut]

In my mind, the end date where management will beg for a JCBA is fairly clear. And while it isn't close at hand, it definitely isn't an open ended date. We can discuss this separately from SLI but I will not participate if there are overt/subtle SLI comments.

I will rededicate myself to not making overt or subtle SLI digs. I've tried to remain above it but I'm sure I haven't been.

I think we'll have a fairly successful SLI IF we can get the right JCBA. If we screw up the JCBA no one has anything. There won't be any single scrap of a contract worth fighting over.

So let's hear it. You're a bright guy we should all want to know what you're thinking...

 

[Tail Gunner Joe]

If we screw up the JCBA no one has anything.

Flopgut has just boiled the argument down to its essentials for me:

Good Contract = Good pilot morale = Good SLI

Poor or suspect Contract = SLI not worth fighting about

 

[whatitdoing?]

Please Andy, like you're a saint in the SLI argument.

 

[whatitdoing?]

I will rededicate myself to not making overt or subtle SLI digs. I've tried to remain above it but I'm sure I haven't been.

I think we'll have a fairly successful SLI IF we can get the right JCBA. If we screw up the JCBA no one has anything. There won't be any single scrap of a contract worth fighting over.

So let's hear it. You're a bright guy we should all want to know what you're thinking...

I don't want to hear what he's saying and I have my doubts as to how bright he is.

 

[Flopgut]

In my mind, the end date where management will beg for a JCBA is fairly clear. And while it isn't close at hand, it definitely isn't an open ended date. We can discuss this separately from SLI but I will not participate if there are overt/subtle SLI comments.

Seriously Andy, if you have an idea let's hear it. I'm screaming at my reps right now, and they either out of ideas or won't tell me.

 

[sleeves]

Andy is right about the SLI. NOTHING that is said here is going to get anybody anywhere. We have guys getting paid flight pay loss to fight that.

The contract is where we win or lose as a group. MGT. controls the clock and has the referee in its back pocket. Yelling at the reps will not help. In my mind the NMB will wait until the election is done. At that time Obama can let us go cause he is not worried about reelection or we will get a Republican admin who will pander to MGT. Getting released this close to the election season ain't in the cards.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Andy is right about the SLI. NOTHING that is said here is going to get anybody anywhere. We have guys getting paid flight pay loss to fight that.

The contract is where we win or lose as a group. MGT. controls the clock and has the referee in its back pocket. Yelling at the reps will not help. In my mind the NMB will wait until the election is done. At that time Obama can let us go cause he is not worried about reelection or we will get a Republican admin who will pander to MGT. Getting released this close to the election season ain't in the cards.

Won't matter.......won't get released no matter what. The RLA is the problem with no protections. We need a new law that actually does something. Until that happens, I have no idea why we have a union.

 

[list2002]

Or why they need more $$ to wait till mgmnt decides when it's finally ready to get sh!t done.

 

[General Lee]

UCON mgt is now pretty much former CAL mgt. Smisek continues to flush old UAL mgt out of the system. I don't view that as a bad thing at this point in time; UAL mgt wasn't the best and brightest.

If you, whatitdoing?, and other CAL pilots on this thread can separate SLI discussions (both overt and covert) from the topic at hand, perhaps we can discuss a reasonable end date to a JCBA. You guys chose to jump on my statements as having a SLI undertone - if not overtly, you certainly chose to respond in a manner to make a 'case' for why SLI should favor CAL pilots. SLI's off the table; it will be decided by arbitrators and both sides have lawyered up long ago. While CAL ALPA may hint that snapshots are a moving target, arbitrators have never allowed a snapshot to wander far from announced merger date. If you can find a snapshot anywhere beyond 6 months after announced merger date, please post it because I don't think it exists - I will admit that I'm wrong IF you are able to post a deviation from my statement.
It seems that some want to delve into voluntary furloughs on the UAL side of the fence while ignoring those on the CAL side of the fence that took advantage of similar programs. That's not a can of worms that I wish to open and would prefer to keep those discussions on hold until after a JCBA.

In my mind, the end date where management will beg for a JCBA is fairly clear. And while it isn't close at hand, it definitely isn't an open ended date. We can discuss this separately from SLI but I will not participate if there are overt/subtle SLI comments.

Footnote: I'm a tad more than halfway down the UAL furlough list; hired June 2000. I don't expect much more than 100 CAL pilots to be below me. If there are zero CAL pilots below me, I'd consider that to be a failure on the part of UAL ALPA's legal counsel. But I'm beyond the point where I care about 100 seniority slots; if you care about 100 slots, you need to get a life.
Both sides (CAL ALPA & UAL ALPA) lawyered up long ago and anyone discussing SLI at this time is simply engaging in public masturbation. It may be enjoyable to the one 'pounding his meat' but most observers find it distasteful. There are a few deltoids who enjoy watching this but I wouldn't classify their behavior as normal.

I don't enjoy watching this, I just can't believe your two groups can't get it together. Understand that in the end it will probably go to arbitration. Soooooooo, go to arbitration NOW. Get it over with. Once you get a list that is done by outside neutrals, then get your hands out and go to Smisek and say you're ready. If he doesn't want to do that at that time, then you should review your options...... But come together as a group for gawd's sake. You can ruin your culture and brotherhood by going the way of USAir and SWA, or you can look at the only real success so far in larger airline mergers and do it that way. It's your choice, but don't think everyone is "enjoying" your way of handling this, it is actually making it worse for everyone else. Get a better contract for goodness sake, you're holding others DOWN.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

I don't enjoy watching this, I just can't believe your two groups can't get it together. Understand that in the end it will probably go to arbitration. Soooooooo, go to arbitration NOW.

We know we're going to arbitration. Not even going to try anything else. We have to do a JCBA first. The right JCBA insures everybody has a spot. Something that has increase and a future. The wrong JCBA (the one mgt wants), half of us don't have a job and none of us has a future. Where we screwed up not following your merger's path is by only getting a Tranition and Process Agreement prior to DOJ approval. Looking back, the deal was approved so quick I think all our heads were spinning. CAL only had to give 1 Newark gate to SWA and DOJ bought off on it. (Such BS. As long as those clowns get something the govt will be happy with anything)


Here's what we know: Mgt says we're 1.5 billion apart. We showed them what we want, they haven't responded and it's been a year. So what are the numbers? The mediator hasn't put us on ice, so evidently what we sent them was in the ballpark. I mean, AA pilots got 1 year time out from the mediator for the big opener they had a few years ago. We haven't had that problem. In fact we have all the access to negotiators we can stand. Mgt continues to violate our contract and fails to negotiate in good faith. It's gotta end sometime.


What do we do? Just go lick the cat's butt? What are we not doing in the media that we should be? How do we get more effort out of ALPA? All of us quit dues check off maybe? Ideas?

 

[General Lee]

We know we're going to arbitration. Not even going to try anything else. We have to do a JCBA first. The right JCBA insures everybody has a spot. Something that has increase and a future. The wrong JCBA (the one mgt wants), half of us don't have a job and none of us has a future. Where we screwed up not following your merger's path is by only getting a Tranition and Process Agreement prior to DOJ approval. Looking back, the deal was approved so quick I think all our heads were spinning. CAL only had to give 1 Newark gate to SWA and DOJ bought off on it. (Such BS. As long as those clowns get something the govt will be happy with anything)


Here's what we know: Mgt says we're 1.5 billion apart. We showed them what we want, they haven't responded and it's been a year. So what are the numbers? The mediator hasn't put us on ice, so evidently what we sent them was in the ballpark. I mean, AA pilots got 1 year time out from the mediator for the big opener they had a few years ago. We haven't had that problem. In fact we have all the access to negotiators we can stand. Mgt continues to violate our contract and fails to negotiate in good faith. It's gotta end sometime.


What do we do? Just go lick the cat's butt? What are we not doing in the media that we should be? How do we get more effort out of ALPA? All of us quit dues check off maybe? Ideas?

I think you are correct though, I may have mixed it up a bit. Our merger had our Joint Contract first, and then the SLI. As far as getting your management's attention, that is up to you. It sure doesn't foster good will when they snub you. Good luck to you guys.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

As far as getting your management's attention, that is up to you. It sure doesn't foster good will when they snub you. Good luck to you guys.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Thanks. We need it...

 

[whatitdoing?]

We know we're going to arbitration. Not even going to try anything else. We have to do a JCBA first. The right JCBA insures everybody has a spot. Something that has increase and a future. The wrong JCBA (the one mgt wants), half of us don't have a job and none of us has a future. Where we screwed up not following your merger's path is by only getting a Tranition and Process Agreement prior to DOJ approval. Looking back, the deal was approved so quick I think all our heads were spinning. CAL only had to give 1 Newark gate to SWA and DOJ bought off on it. (Such BS. As long as those clowns get something the govt will be happy with anything)


Here's what we know: Mgt says we're 1.5 billion apart. We showed them what we want, they haven't responded and it's been a year. So what are the numbers? The mediator hasn't put us on ice, so evidently what we sent them was in the ballpark. I mean, AA pilots got 1 year time out from the mediator for the big opener they had a few years ago. We haven't had that problem. In fact we have all the access to negotiators we can stand. Mgt continues to violate our contract and fails to negotiate in good faith. It's gotta end sometime.


What do we do? Just go lick the cat's butt? What are we not doing in the media that we should be? How do we get more effort out of ALPA? All of us quit dues check off maybe? Ideas?

Or it's come way down to meet management, which is my guess.