New:2004 NetJet Payscales!

[Jetsi]

All the replies

cgmason1: I thought I had heard that NJ posted a loss lately, but also heard that was due to European operations. If they got the money, all of you guys deserve a big chunk.

Live4flying: Just curious how posting a 12 million dollar plus profit last year is struggling. Lost money in the last quarter, but still came out way ahead. Fuel prices are hurting everybody right now, and Frontier had a one-time expense in the last fiscal year when they joined up with Horizon to make Frontier Jet Express. The fuel prices will return to something normal sometime soon, and F9 will continue to post a profit. I have no worries, or else I wouldn't have taken a 23K paycut to come here.

As for what I think a NJ pilot should be making, who cares about my opinion, but here it is. I think that the payscale should be by cabin size, weight, or something similar. While flying an Ultra or a Falcon 2000 is technically the same, the Falcon driver should get paid more because his responsibility is higher (as in the airplane costs more and can carry more passengers, meaning more liability for him). Here are numbers that I think would be fair and reasonable. First year captain in the Ultra 75K, with an annual 4 percent raise, and a 16 percent raise in year 5, giving a total around 98K. Sound reasonable? If you guys can get more by all means spend it while thinking of me.

cgmason1 and FracDaddy: I am going to be leaving for the airport for my first tour in the A319 in 3 hours. I have a 1400 show time, and I am going to be on the road for 31 hours, and then I will be home for 3 days. I know exactly where I am going, so I can pack for the weather. I don't have to ride in the back to get to work, my hotel room was set up years ago, along with my ride there. I don't have to throw any bags, file any flight plans, I finally get an airplane with an APU, and I will NEVER have to fly into Teterboro again. From my required observation rides I do believe the grass is greener over here, but when I get back Wednesday night I will come back and post my opinion of 121 line flying.

Until then, clear skies everyone.

Jetsi

 

[LR45JI]

Jetsi,

Congrats on the Frontier job!

Man, I have to tell ya - I REALLY miss the 121 flying...guess like bad relationships you tend to forget the bad stuff (ie. 16-hour duty days, we don't have those at NJA, 8-hour reduced rest overnights, etc....etc....) and remember all the good stuff....like walking on, turning left and closing the door.

Good luck at Frontier and I hope we make you mad you left the fractionals.

 

[Jetsi]

I just finished my first 121 line experience . . .

and all I can say is when can I do it again. It was freakin awesome!

Some (or all) of the fun may disappear eventually, but that was just the coolest thing ever. Sitting in a nice cold cockpit when it was hot as hell outside, had pukers on two flights and I didn't need to worry about cleaning (wasn't technique, CO in the summer is just plain BUMPY). Decent hotel, 19 hours of rest between gigs, and a great group of people to work with.

I was kinda nervous on the first leg, it being all new and stuff. I am still learning the operational techinques to the Airbus, but what a great airplane. Coming in to DEN tonight made a greaser on 16L (and it was ALL LUCK). Had a little girl, probably 3 years old, who wanted to see the cockpit. We talked for a few minutes, and when she left she gave us both a hug and a kiss on the cheek. What a change from "Would you like your arse wiped from front to back or back to front?"

Listen to me (or read me ;-) ), I am babbling like a schoolgirl. But I knew there had to be a job out there like this. I am just stoked.

If you are considering leaving the frax industry, I wouldn't have any second doubts about it. I know I won't overnight in TEX or ASE again, but I won't go to TEB either.

Anyway, gotta call it a night.

Clear skies,

Jetsi

 

[cgmason1]

Congrats Jetsi-sounds great.

How do you like the Airbus?
Been looking at the numbers for the A320 and can't get past the fact that they are all screwy since the conversion from the metric system.
169,754 max t/o wt.....what the!!!

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[DIAMONDDD]

If you are considering leaving the frax industry, I wouldn't have any second doubts about it. I know I won't overnight in TEX or ASE again, but I won't go to TEB either.

Anyway, gotta call it a night.

Clear skies,

Jetsi

Careful, I remember thinking that when I got my Major airline gig that "I would never go to TEB again"
Three years and a furlough later and I am not only going back into TEB, but also as an SIC at about 1/3 the pay I used to get.
Hope it doesn't happen to you but never say never.
DDave

 

[Jetsi]

The next morning

The numbers on the Airbus are screwy. Fortunately those are about the only numbers you need to know. N1 and 2 speeds on the P&W were screwy, and so were flap and gear speeds on the LJ35 (not 200 knots, but 202 knots).

They are in the process of changing the brass around to the new logo, so I don't have any for my hat, meaning I don't have to wear my hat. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

And if I become a REAL airline pilot and get furloughed I will probably go work at the supermarket. But I refuse to believe that could happen, just because I don't want that little cloud sitting over me all the time. Take the punches as they come.

But this thread is now way off of its original aspect. Lets get back to it. How were my proposed numbers? Right on, too high, too low? At NJ when you make captain do you go to a first year captain pay like FLOPS or do you get credit for years in service. Just in case someone asks what I think a 2000 driver should get paid, I want to know how it works over there.

Show me the money!

Jetsi

 

[USMC319]

"What is the difference between what an airline captain and a fractional captain? I mean all we do is sit up front and push buttons. But the pay is wayyyyyy different. Some things that I do that my airline captain wife doesn't.

fuel plane
clean plane
get their catering (make sure it's right)
open their car door
get their bags out and load them
brought the kitchen sink now i've got to figure out what to do with it
brief the owners
take off with them taping me on the shoulder before v1
serve food
serve drinks
figure out where your ride is at the fbo
do some circling aproach to some "really important airport" (read middle of nowhere)
get the bags out and the kitchen sink
pull the car around
load the car while the owner tips the line service who did nothing
clean the plane
stock the plane
cover the plane
figure out where the hotel is
try to find a ride to the hotel but nobody can give us a ride
ride in some smelly cab while the guy rips us off
overnight.

now repeat this 5 times a day for 7 straight. So are fractional pilots overpaid? I don't think so. I'm just trying to bring the pay up to the industry standard. That's the point we're not even close to the industry standard. So yes i'm underpaid."

Sounds like a pretty shi!!y job. You guys do need a pay raise.

 

[FLYLOW22]

and all I can say is when can I do it again. It was freakin awesome!

Some (or all) of the fun may disappear eventually, but that was just the coolest thing ever. Sitting in a nice cold cockpit when it was hot as hell outside, had pukers on two flights and I didn't need to worry about cleaning (wasn't technique, CO in the summer is just plain BUMPY). Decent hotel, 19 hours of rest between gigs, and a great group of people to work with.

Listen to me (or read me ;-) ), I am babbling like a schoolgirl. But I knew there had to be a job out there like this. I am just stoked.

If you are considering leaving the frax industry, I wouldn't have any second doubts about it. I know I won't overnight in TEX or ASE again, but I won't go to TEB either.

Jetsi,

I'm happy you are enjoying the "incredible eclectic jet". I too remember my 1st leg flown in the A320. Two cheeks in every seat, 2 jumpseaters... CLT to LAX, greaser on 24R and the whole deal. You couldn't wipe the smile from my face that errupted as I heard those CFMs spool up and start developing TOGA thrust. Heck, I nearly forgot my callouts on takeoff roll!!

Enjoy but temper yourself. You are rightfully excited BUT... Nothing lasts forever and NEVER say NEVER. The improbable can (and in this industry) evetually DOES happen. The FRAX industry is an infant still. It has yet to flesh itself out...

FLYLOW

P.S. USMC319... Why the hell did you ever clean up puke?? That's what FBOs are for dude!! HAHAH!!

 

[infoman]

Jetsi,

The paysacale at Netjets is time with company, not time in seat. If you upgraded at 2.5 years you are on 3 year captain pay...... as for pay ? I wants lots, and lots.

Have a Happy!

 

[swberry]

Something has been missed here. NJA pilots will not get a pay raise because they clean airplanes, or because they load baggage, or because they fly alot of legs, or because they do long duty days; blah blah. Management could care less about that. They do care about selling a service. If the pilots are not happy then the customers will not be happy then the company will not be able to sell their service. Thay have a vested interest in our happiness and they know it. They must keep pilots somewhat happy due to the demanding clientele we deal with. Fractional pilots do not walk into the airplane, turn left and close the door.

 

[boxhauler]

Except for the BBJ. F/O's are time in company Capts are year1 BBJ year2 BBJ etc.

 

[USMC319]

"P.S. USMC319... Why the hell did you ever clean up puke?? That's what FBOs are for dude!! HAHAH!!"

FLY LOW
I didn't say I had to clean up puke. I was merely quoting someone's list of fractional pilot "duties", and concurred that they need a raise to do such a shi!!y job. I've spent many years hanging around FBOs, waiting for passengers and doing all the crap that goes along with charter and corporate flying. It is a thankless job. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of respect given to the crews of light jets and TPs by those outside the group. If pay was predicated on the amount of overall responsibility and work conditions, then the frax guys would make more than the airline guys, but then again with that reasoning the single-pilot piston twin freighters would be the highest paid in the industry. In any case, work rules ultimately make the airline job most desirable and in most cases the best paying. It is hard to beat walking down the jet-way into your $45 million dollar bird, taking a left and strapping in and having almost everything already done for you. And there is this really cool button on the overhead panel, you just push it and a pretty flight attendant brings you a fresh cup of coffee!

 

[FLYLOW22]

Well.... You get coffee if you de-energize the defense fields, call off the dogs, drain the moat, turn off the TSA "laser" activated security system, tell the Air Marshals onboard that this is merely a coffee break and you find a FA that doesn't mind getting you the coffee.

All in all... I'd rather just reach behind the cutain and get it myself.

In my experience some FAs were great to fly with but many needed to be labeled INOP.

"Pretty" FA? I haven't seen one of those in.......

 

[FracCapt]

Well.... You get coffee if you de-energize the defense fields, call off the dogs, drain the moat, turn off the TSA "laser" activated security system, tell the Air Marshals onboard that this is merely a coffee break and you find a FA that doesn't mind getting you the coffee.

You forgot about having one of the FA's park a beverage cart across the isle and having another one standing guard in front of it....The one standing guard is usually Olga, the 50 year old 200lb Norwegian FA that even that Air Marshals are backing away from. It's then the ugly one that gets the coffee(and hope they don't do anything to it before it gets to you).

 

[USMC319]

FLYLOW,

C'mon, it looks like you once were flying an Airbus, do you really expect me to believe that you would rather contort your body around and fiddle with a curtain on a Citation to get a cup of coffee instead of pushing the button and moseying around the flight deck waiting for the FA? LOL

 

[FLYLOW22]

FLYLOW,

C'mon, it looks like you once were flying an Airbus, do you really expect me to believe that you would rather contort your body around and fiddle with a curtain on a Citation to get a cup of coffee instead of pushing the button and moseying around the flight deck waiting for the FA? LOL

HAHAHA! It just sounds like it now takes an "act of congress" to get a Cup o' Joe these days on an airliner. I guess I'd rather... well... yes... just reach behind while flying at 47,000 ft at .92M and get my coffee myself. Visene and spit free...

 

[USMC319]

FlyLow,

Well.......I'm not going to convince you that the airline lifestyle is better by having this silly coffee discussion, so I will digress. The C-750 is not a bad ride, but keep in mind FL470 and M0.92 will only impress your Mom. I've only tagged along in the right seat of the X a couple of times, I much prefer Falcon 2000. But as you might guess, I'd trade them all for a good old A-320. Have a good one.

 

[FLYLOW22]

FlyLow,

Well.......I'm not going to convince you that the airline lifestyle is better by having this silly coffee discussion, so I will digress. The C-750 is not a bad ride, but keep in mind FL470 and M0.92 will only impress your Mom. I've only tagged along in the right seat of the X a couple of times, I much prefer Falcon 2000. But as you might guess, I'd trade them all for a good old A-320. Have a good one.

Dude. It's good coffee!! It's starbucks. What are you drinking up there... Maxwell house? Hehehe.

FL470 impresses not only my mom but ATC in the flexibility we give them as you motor along and clog the airwaves in your Bus at .78M.

It impresses out owners as we get them to their transcon destination up to 1 hour earlier than a bus could.

It impresses me when I'm able to climb up over the top and look down on weather rather than deviating by 2 states to avoid it.

The front of the X IS a bit cramped... but I'm not in the thing all that much since we get there that much faster.

Beep beep... get on da bus.

 

[Lrjet55]

The only thing I have to add is as NJA X guys are crusing at FL470 they are thinking "how the hell am I going to pay the mortgage".


The guy in the bus is sitting at FL350 in the weather thinking "man this sucks but as soon as I get home I am going to play with my new -insert expensive toy here-"
Me personally, I'm in the Hawker so I have to sit in the weather AND wonder how I am going to pay the mortgage bill.

 

[FLYLOW22]

The only thing I have to add is as NJA X guys are crusing at FL470 they are thinking "how the hell am I going to pay the mortgage".


The guy in the bus is sitting at FL350 in the weather thinking "man this sucks but as soon as I get home I am going to play with my new -insert expensive toy here-"

I don't know how ANYONE in this industry (save a DAL pilot for now until Ch11) is paying for the mortgage. Pay rates at LCCs that we used to laugh at are now the benchmark?!?!!?

The grass isn't greener at FL350 dude. It's just another view of the same yard.

 

[3Wire]

Out of the mouths of babes....

FlyLow,

Well.......I'm not going to convince you that the airline lifestyle is better by having this silly coffee discussion, so I will digress. The C-750 is not a bad ride, but keep in mind FL470 and M0.92 will only impress your Mom. I've only tagged along in the right seat of the X a couple of times, I much prefer Falcon 2000. But as you might guess, I'd trade them all for a good old A-320. Have a good one.

USMC319,

You are an idiot....and an embarrassment to your username (and as a former Marine Aviator and current Reservist, I have every right to say that).

I've read your crap way too often and I'm using my 1ST post to tell YOU that you need to stop opining on things about which you, clearly, have no understanding. Seems like you have something to prove to yourself. Frustrated are we??.....typical. $50 bucks says I guess your airframe pipeline, in the Corps, in 1 guess.

and P.S.......don't hold your breath for a response, you'll suffocate.

Semper fly,

 

[USMC319]

3Wire,


It seems that you are the one that is a bit "frustrated". Chopper pilot? Settle down son. And don't berate me and my beloved Corps. You don't rate, I can assure you of that. I'd like to hear your guess anyway. By your tone I think you will be way off. Now get down and give me 50.

Flylow22,
The Maxwell House is fine but I prefer Folgers. The flighties usually offer the crew Starbucks, but I don't like the stuff. If it makes you happy, I'll be impressed with your C-750. I was just trying to give you a compliment pal. However, I know you secretly like your old US Airways Airbus better.

 

[beerfarter]

in the words of roger daltry: "everything's f*cked...it's a put-on."

management everywhere knows that when it comes to pilots, there is ALWAYS a pilot somewhere willing to f*ck another pilot and fly for chicken feed.

this situation is analogous to pft...one guy started it, a manager noticed and everyone was f*cked. one guy (probably the same guy) agreed to work for $hit, a manager noticed and everyone was f*cked.

 

[Number$Cruncher]

Your overhead comment would go over for a AIRLINE.

But the owners pay their fees every month like clockwork. This whole gig should be set up to make money if the jets sit.. and we all sit in hotels doing nothing.

Should make MORE money if we are flying.

Should make EVEN MORE money if we are flying and selling marquis cards at a markup over regular owners rates.

Does make HUGE MONEY on the difference betweeen share price (MSRP for the plane) and what netjets negotiates with manufacturers for. It is a VERY big deal for manufacturers to cover their RnD cost, and get a plane out to market. I'm sure the rates that NJA gets on planes are at or below "cost" for some of these programs.

It's a whole different ball of wax. We don't depend on people shopping around and buying a ticket. I can't envision ONE of our owners sitting in a airport lounge waiting on a cattle call to get on a smelly old airliner.

JP

I simply can't believe what you wrote in this post. You have demonstrated pretty clearly a complete lack of understanding for the economics of your business. Unless you educate yourself even just a little, you're doomed to spend next few dozen years becoming more and more bitter about all of the money you didn't make. I'd suggest buying an introductory book on ecomomics. With few exceptions, in our society few people get paid what they deserve, they are paid what the market will bear.

 

[Lrjet55]

Some folks will always search out the lower price deal...and suffer the consequences. Ask Paine Stewart's widow if she wishes he'd bought a share.

Dang Griz, thats a helluva good shot. Soooo very true though.

 

[Lear70]

Griz is pretty close to the mark, but not entirely accurate.

Paine Stewart DID own a share... at Flexjet. I flew him around several times in and out of SGJ (Saint Augustine) along with his father - two very friendly and personable gentlemen. Paine's favorite thing was to play with the FMS... he always wanted to come up and chat, then asked if he could program something in.

My last week at Flexjet I flew Mr. Stewart to the U.S. Open and back, and the day of the accident I was just finishing my first week of Indoc at Express One and we heard the news. I immediately called Flexjet to find out who was flying him and was told, "It's not one of ours. He called for a plane this morning with four hour's notice, we didn't have one for him for at least 7 hours, and he got his own charter".

He did get his own charter through a "friend" of his... one where the Captain had less then 100 hours in a Lear and the F/O had less than 1500 Total Time, no previous jet experience, and had just come out of Initial Simuflite. Rumor has it maintenance had been done on the O2 system and the mechanic left the O2 bottle off to save air until use (normal practice). Either the f/o didn't check it on preflight (bottle located on the vertical stab - requires a ladder to get to it) or she didn't know that when the knob says "off", it's really on, and when the knob says "on", it's in the off position (there's an itty bitty arrow beside the word that tells you to turn it that direction for the desired position).

But even though this little anecdote may be interesting to some, the original point Griz made was correct: you may get out cheaper chartering an aircraft, but nothing is worth having family and friends lose their life to stupidity, incompetence, or just plain old inexperience... things you don't see much at the fractionals these days when the Captains and F/O's flying have several YEARS in their respective aircraft 99% of the time (there's a REASON insurance companies want time in type).

Number Cruncher, you just proved you have absolutely NO understanding of the fractional biz. Part of the Marquis Card markup price includes additional pilot costs, but amazingly the pilots don't see an extra dime of that, even though their salary is already paid for with the base cost of ownership and every dime of Marquis Card "pilot costs" go straight into the pockets of ownership as additional profit. (I always had a problem with that at Flexjet too).

Here's a market reality in the aviation world: when your company is profitable you can ask for more on your end without putting the company in a financial bind and require them to share their profits (oh my God, did he just say SHARE??!! )

And you're dead wrong: in a union shop you don't get what you deserve, nor what the "market will bear", you get what you NEGOTIATE.

 

[Number$Cruncher]

If you haven't seen this before it's called flame-bait. Number$Cruncher is a guy with absolutely no credibility on these boards (3 whole posts...all tonight) that gets on to espouse his/her point of view ...however ridiculous it may be.

Let's take this one piece at a time. First, you're right...I have just begun to post on this board, but I have been a lurker for a long time. I hope that credibility is built not only by posting things that everyone agrees with. My post was not to intentionally get a rise out of anyone for the sport of it, but I thought it might get some flak.

Number Cruncher, you just proved you have absolutely NO understanding of the fractional biz. Part of the Marquis Card markup price includes additional pilot costs, but amazingly the pilots don't see an extra dime of that, even though their salary is already paid for with the base cost of ownership and every dime of Marquis Card "pilot costs" go straight into the pockets of ownership as additional profit. (I always had a problem with that at Flexjet too).

I really do have an understanding of the fractional biz, and you've misunderstood my point. When it comes to you getting paid what the market will bear vs. what you deserve, I'm not suggesting that is should be this way, it is that it simply is this way.

Any business that enjoyed market demand so high that it could support prices as high as JP11 suggested would quickly face competition as others entered to get their own share of the pie. Granted, with an operation as complex as a fractional network it might take some time, but the competion will come. That's the basic bit of economics that JP11 misses.

Here's a market reality in the aviation world: when your company is profitable you can ask for more on your end without putting the company in a financial bind and require them to share their profits (oh my God, did he just say SHARE??!! )

If you've set up a profit sharing arrangement, sure. You'll get a piece of the profits. But what makes us, as pilots, so special to get more than anyone else at the company for a line item that you say says "pilot"? Would you be as willing to take a pay cut when the company is not profitable? You shouldn't...just as you shouldn't arbitrarily get a piece of the additional costs earmarked as "pilot costs."

Your point about the customer goes with another post I made yesterday about someone wanting a tip, as a limo driver had gotten, for carrying bags. As far as the customer is concerned, their number one concern is usually safety. They want to be as sure as they can that the operation they fly with is safe. Period. They trust "the company" to do whatever it takes to maintain the aircraft and to hire pilots that will get them from A to B safely. If "the market" for pilots is so expensive that the company must charge more than they can afford, then they will not purchase...or they'll go to another operator whose operation meets their criteria. So how do the customers decide which operator is safe? Ask your customers, but they'll look at overall safety record, what their friends say (don't dismiss that fact for a second), and whether the airplanes "look" safe. You'll find that while they might enjoy seeing the same face in the cockpit many times, the fractional customer places little added value on that. They're buying the consistency demonstrated by the Netjets (or FlightOptions) product, and a qualified pilot is simply another piece of that product.

For some customers, they are so very concerned about safety that they want to know and control everything about the operation. They buy their own equipment, hire their own crews, and pay them whatever they have to to keep them. This is an example of a market that will bear significantly more than the broader one. Corporate aviation is often this way, as can VHNW individuals. But whether you like it or not, for fractionals there will always be an ample supply of pilots (the only shortage will be in the training pipeline), and that supply will drive down the cost to hire them.

And you're dead wrong: in a union shop you don't get what you deserve, nor what the "market will bear", you get what you NEGOTIATE

That might be true in the short term, but ask the pilots at the legacy carriers how that is working out for them. Better to build a sustainable business that will provide a more stable income over the course of a career, don't you think? Businesses that have to raise prices to cover the increasing costs (whatever they are) will eventually face a shrinking market, customers that move to lower-cost alternatives, or both.

 

[niteflyr]

"I hope that credibility is built not only by posting things that everyone agrees with."

Unfortunately Number Cruncher this is exactly how this place works...