Netjets will be fine. No strike will occur.

[flyjetspeed]

The problem in this negotiation as I see it is that the union may well try and catch up on all areas in one giant leap. It is that "we are going ot cure the ills right now" attitiude. Rarely is that successful.

I agree, 6S (all or nothing is a limiting strategy)

Basically Netjets is an arranger.They arrange the sale of an aircraft by bringing in more than one party and combining his purchase with another. They further arrange trips and pilot services.

More complex than that. More like a bank with tons of occupied hours in it and Airplanes to deliver the hours to the customers with flight hour balances.

...the rah rah factor when everyone wants to show the big bad corporation management their perceived power.

The Ego's always get in the way of things getting done, Ya think?

 

[El Chupacabra]

More complex than that. More like a bank with tons of occupied hours in it and Airplanes to deliver the hours to the customers with flight hour balances.

​

Exactly. Just like fractional banking.

A review of "A Brief History of Money"... and the evolution of banking... will yield an understanding and perspective not appreciated by many.

 

[h25b]

Could someone clue me in on the approximate hours that the average NetJets aircraft accumulates in a year. ?? With all of the Marquis Card flying it has got to be over a thousand hrs. per plane/yr.

 

[flyjetspeed]

I think it's very spread out by aircraft type. The longer range aircraft like the GV run up some big numbers over very few cycles while the Bravo's/Ultra's put up some really large cycles compared to fewer total hours per cycle. A more signifigant value would be productivity by AC type measured in dollars earned per quarter/year. Of course the question begs to be asked. What is an appropriate pilot salary for each aircraft type based on productivity measured in dollars?

 

[h25b]

I guess where I'm going with this is trying to picture their overall cost structure. The maintenance alone trying to keep things flying has to be unbelieveable..

 

[flyjetspeed]

Not necessarily, I have had some experience with this calculation in a previous incarnation. The fixed costs get nicely amortised(that would include you and me) with the larger total hours per year. Here the operating costs largely get passed on to the owner, i.e. fuel, maint.,. catering, landing fees etc. either as a monthly fee or as a direct billing. RTS really did his homework on this believe it or not. The big item of course is positioning legs. IJ 2 is supposed to maximize the efficiancies here but sometimes it is hard to see the "big picture" while your watching a few thousand dollars get wasted. What I would like to see is a system that would allow a crew to suggest an alternitive course of action and the Dispatcher's/Scheduler's would be required to review it with management oversite to see if it will work. Codeword could be "WASTE ALERT" meaning, of course "Dude that's stupid why don't we just....." Mature organizations are very well aware that cost savings are easily found out on the floor and mine them aggressively. We will get there in time tho. Patience is a virtue.

 

[El Chupacabra]

One would think there should be about 800 occupied hours on average per airframe plus whatever repo time is necessary. In my experience the shorter range plane has a greater percentage of repo hours.

In theory JetCards should not be increasing the number of hours on the airplanes because they are resold hours from a fractional owner entitled to only 800 hours per full share. Hours divided up into 25 hr cards should make no difference in total hours flown.

 

[NJAowner]

Wealthy people and money

These threads are starting to sound like the basis of socialism and not capitalism ...

i.e, wealthy people will part with their $$$ just becasue they have alot of it.


Very, very wrong assumption. Wealthy people may pi$$ away alot of $$, and waste alot of $$$, but it is for fun and things they like -- i.e., cars, jewelry, race horses, race cars, the list is limitless.

The falacy is assuming that if they are willing to do this they will pay NJA more for pilots.

As Ihave been sayoing for years ... added perceived (and not necessarily acutal) value higheer salaries.

 

[Some Dude]

Owner what' more important?
NJA hiring and retaining the best pilots they can find or NJA paying as little as they can and hiring pilots who don't care about NJA because it's only a temporary job until they find something better? How are you going to get the highest level of safety and service that way? Kinda makes those "fun purchases" not so important. You should and probably do put your family's safety number one. It doesn't matter how much money you have you can't take it with you.

 

[h25b]

Not necessarily, I have had some experience with this calculation in a previous incarnation. The fixed costs get nicely amortised(that would include you and me) with the larger total hours per year. Here the operating costs largely get passed on to the owner, i.e. fuel, maint.,. catering, landing fees etc. either as a monthly fee or as a direct billing. RTS really did his homework on this believe it or not. The big item of course is positioning legs. IJ 2 is supposed to maximize the efficiancies here but sometimes it is hard to see the "big picture" while your watching a few thousand dollars get wasted. What I would like to see is a system that would allow a crew to suggest an alternitive course of action and the Dispatcher's/Scheduler's would be required to review it with management oversite to see if it will work. Codeword could be "WASTE ALERT" meaning, of course "Dude that's stupid why don't we just....." Mature organizations are very well aware that cost savings are easily found out on the floor and mine them aggressively. We will get there in time tho. Patience is a virtue.

I see what you are saying, but from my experience thus far it's not the fixed costs that kill you. It's the maintenance and additional costs associated with flying the aircraft upwards of 800-1000 hrs./yr. that will get you. You are right about all of the dead-legs, that has got to be monumental... Am I correct in assuming that thos DO NOT generate any revenue ? You obviously have occupied owner costs, but for these legs nothing...

 

[NJAowner]

Some Dude -- I agree with you 100% on the safety issue. The point I was trying to make is that the number of posts dealing with rich people parting with their money far outnumbers the number of posts dealing with safety.


If you talk safety you may get the $$; if the basis of your arguments is parting with wealth you will not.

Thanks for flying us around safely!

 

[Some Dude]

Owner, what is frustrating to many pilots at NJA is that our level of service has gone down steadily. I used to be proud of the company and the level of service. Now I spend a lot of time explaining to owners why they didn't get the plane they requested and why the dvd, phone, lav, etc, doesn't work. The unique experience of NetJets has turned into a Walmart experience with a Harrods price tag.

 

[Publishers]

With size, it is hard to be personal and that for the most part is what any owner wants. It is hard to put down an $11.0m jet for a DVD that does not work. On the other hand, if the owner was not part of Netjets, you can be assured someone would fix the DVD or get a replacement.

As for the repo hours. It is the bane of existance for this type company. Scheduling is the biggest headache in the business. After all, the reason that you have an aircraft is that you want to leave when you want to leave,

If this is the hardest thing for a 121 carrier to do with a fixed schedule, impagine what it is like to do this in the Netjets environment.

As for safety, it is a perceived value and one that is assumed. If the owner did not look at it that way, would he put his family on it. Then again, would he not have safe pilots if he had his own? Of course he would.

The perceived value is as an arranger. It is supposed to make things simpler however after reading one of their contracts, it would take a law firm to understand parts of it.

This model is showing its age and the pilot issues just another aspect of that. How it is dealt with will determin e the future.

 

[Hogprint]

Hey all, do you remember talk of Netjets going regional? Planes based in the west tend to stay there, east tend to stay east.

I remember talk of a west coast casino to manage those birds. I have seen this implemented in principle (not the west coast casino, but keeping planes and crews regional), but nothing hard and fast, especially now.

Any thoughts?

 

[h25b]

As for the repo hours. It is the bane of existance for this type company. Scheduling is the biggest headache in the business. After all, the reason that you have an aircraft is that you want to leave when you want to leave,

If this is the hardest thing for a 121 carrier to do with a fixed schedule, impagine what it is like to do this in the Netjets environment.

Exactly my point. I wonder if there is a point at which the business model reaches critical mass on several fronts (i.e. scheduling, customer service, maint....) There is a point at which you can screw up a good thing by trying to become too big. I think this is where NetJets is. I've seen operations that reach a point of size where the cost of operations stop growing predictably and start growing exponentially.

What's going to start happening is that NetJets will start losing their bread and butter customers (i.e. the ones that could afford their own jet anyway). Sounds like that is already starting to happen.

 

[Fracster]

I dont think NJA has reached "critical mass".

Many of the onwers are displeased, why, becuase NJA changed. Did it have to change, no, not in the areas they are unhappy with.

The owners are not unhappy with the size of NJA or the pilot group. They are unhappy that their airplanes are dirty, owners services lies constantly and management does very little about it. None of this had to change. The owners have never really known about how unhappy the pilots have been and they probably don't care. We do our job and thats all that matters to them.

The planes could easily be cleaned on a regular basis and management could have easily kept an eye on owner services but they just dont care.

Current management only knows dollar signs not customer service.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Current management only knows dollar signs not customer service.

Ahhhh but in that statement lies the key!

Without an eye for customer service, the dollar signs are not sustainable long term.

People pay for customer service and product.

The pilots here used to be the custodians of customer service. We have gladly handed that job back to NJA management. Lead NJA management. We will follow... only so far as the FARs allow.

 

[rettofly]

Spelling...

growing exponentially (yes, I might have miss-spelled that one)...
QUOTE]

You got exponentially right but you mis-spelled mis-spelled.

 

[h25b]

growing exponentially (yes, I might have miss-spelled that one)...
QUOTE]

You got exponentially right but you mis-spelled mis-spelled.

THANKS!!! FIXED IT...

 

[dsptchrnja]

Is it just me, or has everyone else become bored with with these Netjets threads....

$hit or get off the pot....Netjetswife needs that new car.

good grief

That's for sure...

When you got the same 5 knuckleheads on here day-in, day-out, spewing out garbage and dominating every post with distorted and fallacious reasoning... it get's un-interesting fast.

Just ignore them... they won't go away... just ignore them