NetJets Places Order For 96 New Aircraft

[FLYLOW22]

Thank you NJ capts for keeping the FOs on food stamps.

NJ Captains got F/Os off of $27,000 per year wages. Those WERE food stamp wages.

 

[Fozzy]

NJA is a Union shop.

IT IS CALLED SENIORITY! Captains leave the Cat 1 fleets for bigger and better money. That in turn opens spots for FO's to make Captain. THAT IS HOW IT WORKS.
Yes FO pay sucks. But do not cry to me that I am not letting you jump ahead when the next bid comes out. If I see something I want to bid and I can hold it, then I will.

 

[Fozzy]

I completely agree with you. I am so tired of seeing captains being awarded captain bids. There should be a longer seat lock such as 3 years for aircraft type. This would help slow down pilots from channging aircraft to collect type ratings, it would reduce training costs, and increase the amount of upgrades. The problem with NJA is that when captains bid captain slots, it creates openings in those aircraft the captains are bidding out of, yet the company does not immidately produce a bid to fill those slots.

" yet the company does not immidately produce a bid to fill those slots"

What so you have to wait a few months?!? It is seniority. The spots will open.

If the company wants the savings you describe then they can negotiate for it in 2010.

 

[CA1900]

Put APUs in everything, and I guarantee that'll cut down on the cross-bidding.

 

[skiandsurf]

IT IS CALLED SENIORITY! Captains leave the Cat 1 fleets for bigger and better money. That in turn opens spots for FO's to make Captain. THAT IS HOW IT WORKS.
Yes FO pay sucks. But do not cry to me that I am not letting you jump ahead when the next bid comes out. If I see something I want to bid and I can hold it, then I will.

I understand seniority and payscales, but if I am not mistaken, a 800xp and a G200 pay the same amount of money. As does a soveriegn and the ten.

I have no problem with captains bidding out of the 400 and ultras, those are "entry level" planes....although the pay doesnt change, I can understand "wanting" to gt out of these.

I came over to NJs after the contract, but I was under the impression that some of the senior FOs were bypassing the upgrade, and allowing the junior guys to upgrade, therefore allowing as many guys to make captains pay. Now that mentallity is gone. Its more like "screw the newhires", they have domiciles and will be FOs forever.

If you think RTS wanted to divide the group, he is getting help from the help of the "type collectors".

 

[CA1900]

I understand seniority and payscales, but if I am not mistaken, a 800xp and a G200 pay the same amount of money.

You are mistaken. The G200 is a Class 3 airplane, while an 800XP is a Class 2. After year 10, the Class 3 is worth more money. If I were getting close to that point, I'd take the first G200 bid I could for the higher pay.

You are correct about the Sovereign and the X; they're both Class 2 airplanes.

I came over to NJs after the contract, but I was under the impression that some of the senior FOs were bypassing the upgrade, and allowing the junior guys to upgrade, therefore allowing as many guys to make captains pay. Now that mentallity is gone.

Complete non-sequitur. It isn't a question of mentality -- it's a question of the contract. Under the old one as I understand it, if anyone junior to you held a captain position (which was possible because of equipment locks), you received captain bypass pay. That's no longer the case. Take a look at 5.3(a)(iii) -- if an FO receiving captain bypass pay didn't put a standing bid in for a captain slot, he lost captain's pay under the new contract.

 

[Fozzy]

That was something completely different. The bypass thing was something from the fight for the CBA 2005. It was something that was NEVER intended to be a lasting thing. Many made a sacrifice to help the whole. It worked. It was also a way to stick it to the company.

But it was never intended to thrown in the faces of the more senior guys down the road. I am sorry if you don't like it. But if someone wants to bid Captain in every Cat 1 or 2 airplane then that it is their right. That is what seniority is all about. If you want to see how life is like where there is no seniority, just look to CS.

Hang in there. Your time will come.

 

[skiandsurf]

Hang in there. Your time will come.

With 20 captain bids per month x 12 months=240 captains bids/yr.

At the rate of 5 "true upgrades"/month= 4 yrs for 240 "true upgrades".

I am hanging in there, and I know my time will come. The question is when???

I am just trying to let the guys looking to come here, it is probably too late. With the seniority list hitting 2700 pilots, I think it will take a looooong time for these upgrades (junior captains are 1830s).

 

[pilotpat]

(Thinking positive here)

When I get my call and pass my interview for NJA, I will be taking a little better than a $30K/year paycut. Sounds kind of dumb initially, but when you look at the long haul, I'd need to be paid over $90K/year right now to equal 10 years at NJA (not going to happen in my 135 world). Maybe a little tight for the first few years, but adapt and have the foresight and you'll feel a lot better.

 

[pilotpat]

Double post...

 

[fischman]

Actually, I would argue that Captains bidding into other other aircraft wouls actully open up more slots. As a pilot moves from fleet X to fleet Y that opens up a spot in fleet X, with a net gain of 0.

However, the more pilots that are in training the fewer are on the line. The company need the pilots on the line, not in the sims. Therefore if more pilots are in training, more pilots will be needed on the line while the first one is in training. Make sense?

 

[Ultra Grump]

And following that logic, if cldsfr79's dream of 3-year seatlocks comes to pass, it will slow down upgrades by 50%, since that many fewer people will be in the initial type pipeline at any given time.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I came over to NJs after the contract, but I was under the impression that some of the senior FOs were bypassing the upgrade, and allowing the junior guys to upgrade, therefore allowing as many guys to make captains pay. Now that mentallity is gone. Its more like "screw the newhires", they have domiciles and will be FOs forever.

:crying: Someone get this baby a bottle to stop the bawling.

You are wrong.

With 20 captain bids per month x 12 months=240 captains bids/yr.

At the rate of 5 "true upgrades"/month= 4 yrs for 240 "true upgrades".

I am hanging in there, and I know my time will come. The question is when???

:uzi: :crying:

From where exactly are you getting the "5 true upgrades/month" figures? Last awards, 15 of 36 awards were upgrades. 11 of 23 of the latest bid postings were Ultra, Encore, and 400 slots. Wait your turn and quit your bitching. If you can't deal with seniority, get out of aviation.

 

[skiandsurf]

:crying: Someone get this baby a bottle to stop the bawling.

You are wrong.

:uzi: :crying:

From where exactly are you getting the "5 true upgrades/month" figures? Last awards, 15 of 36 awards were upgrades. 11 of 23 of the latest bid postings were Ultra, Encore, and 400 slots. Wait your turn and quit your bitching. If you can't deal with seniority, get out of aviation.

I am bitching over a pay raise (QOL) issue, while you bitch about the plane you fly. Well, didnt you BID (want) to fly that plane in the first place?

 

[CA1900]

I am bitching over a pay raise (QOL) issue, while you bitch about the plane you fly. Well, didnt you BID (want) to fly that plane in the first place?

Be realistic. You're telling me you'll delay your upgrade and bid only bid the planes you want to fly for many years? Or are you going to bid the earliest upgrade slot you can get, so you can get that $40K raise that much sooner?



...


Yeah, exactly.

 

[skiandsurf]

Be realistic. You're telling me you'll delay your upgrade and bid only bid the planes you want to fly for many years? Or are you going to bid the earliest upgrade slot you can get, so you can get that $40K raise that much sooner?



...


Yeah, exactly.

I only question those that jump from 800xp to C-X to XL. I have no problem with anyone bidding out of the 400 and Ultras.

 

[CA1900]

Ah, understood then.

Keep in mind the XL is currently the highest paying aircraft up through year 9 (I believe), due to the differences pay for flying the XL and XLS. That's one reason a lot of guys are bidding over to it, I think.

 

[cldsfr79]

Fozzy, How long did you sit in the right seat at NJA? Given that you flew a Beech 1900, I'm going to say you came to the company 5+ years ago and was either a street captain or upgraded in 6 months. Some FOs, especially the new guys, may have to sit in that seat for 3 to 5 years, and it just may be a little annoying to see bids always being awarded to captains.

Look I understand the reasons captains bid other planes, maybe it's a bigger plane, a better schedule, more money. It would just be nice if the company was proactive by coming out with a large bid for Ultras, Encores, 400s, and other 1st tier type of aircraft at the same time as G200, Falcon, XL, etc, bids to anticipate the flow change.

I'm just saying that the upgrades have slowed and it doesn't help when captains take captain bids. Since January NJA has hired around 130 pilots (lot including those who left), but in the same time, only place around 70 captain bids. Of those bids, around 25% were actually awarded to FO.

While I’m stirring the pot…..let me address FO pay. No it’s not food stamp wages, but it could be better. Historically FO pay in the industry has always been between 40-60% of what a captain makes. At the fractionals it needs to be much more. Yes, FOs aren’t the “Pilot in Command” nor do they hold the ultimate responsibility for the aircraft in which captains claims to be the reason they need to get paid so well. FOs at the fractionals have to (on top of the regular flying duties) cater the aircraft, stock the aircraft, clean the aircraft, and assist in baggage handling. With these duties, the FOs should get a bit more compensation for what they do.

 

[Fozzy]

Yup, I was one of the lucky off the street guys. THAT is a story for another time and place.
Man I feel your pain. Been there and done that. Just keep in mind, you will make more your first three years at NJA as an FO than I did as a Captain.

Hope those slots come soon. Good luck.

 

[popgoesbubble]

[ Very few people want to be PICs on the Ultra, Encore, or 400 their whole NetJets careers.[/quote]


Guess you've never had the pleasure of flying with Bill Lucy then? Talk about a piece of garbage that needs to go away!

Ok I'll add to this whole Captain/Captain bidding going on as most of us that post on here are ex airlines guys most of our old companies had policy's that if you are a captain or FO and decide to down bid to a smaller A/c then you got a 5 yr seat lock vs the 2yr if you upgraded to a larger a/c

What we have happening here is you see Cat 2/3 guys down bidding to 400Xp when it was a new plane cuz they know they won't work. now those same guys will bid back to the 4000 when it comes and spend most of there career here not really working by chasing those new a/c types that come on property. Watch the same thing will happen when we get the encore+ XLS+ and the 900xp.

If you guys really want to stir the pot lets have the company follow the airlines and maintain an age 65 and your done policy. I'm sure plenty of you have had the pleasure of flying with a +65 yr old that says "they don't need the money, the wife just wants me out of the house" type. or met the guy with multiple retirement pensions but just tells you that he just "LOVE's" to Fly!

I've had the pleasure of flying with many ex UAL, and DAL guys that had the misfortune of lossing there pensions but each one will tell you that there here for max 5yrs to make up and then throwing in the towel. I just don't get the guys that say there gonna stay here til they can't find the airport anymore.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I am bitching over a pay raise (QOL) issue, while you bitch about the plane you fly. Well, didnt you BID (want) to fly that plane in the first place?

I'm sorry - can you point me to the post where I bitched about the plane I fly?

In every instance, your payraises come with time. Yearly payraises per the contract and the upgrade raise when your SENIORITY number comes up. Show me one other seniority-based aviation company where you will upgrade into anything other than the smallest, lowest-paying, and least desireable aircraft. If you can find one, I respectfully request you put in your resume there.

 

[acaTerry]

I am bitching over a pay raise (QOL) issue, while you bitch about the plane you fly. Well, didnt you BID (want) to fly that plane in the first place?

Seniority entitles him to bitch about more than those who are junior to him. Besides, I just don't see why it's a "bad" thing that someone can change planes after 2 years. That's one of the things that makes NJA a good place to work. You'll get to do the same thing one day. And payraises will come with each successive contract, unlike the airlines where more concessions seem to come each time.
Money CAN be made IF you will work reserve. I am yr 3 RSV as an SIC and make more than I did as a 4 year CA at the airlines. It aint terrible here. Let seniority run its course and soon enough you'll have people throwing mud at you too.

 

[skiandsurf]

You SENIOR guys bitch about the lack of service at First Aviation at TEB. Personally, I only go through there maybe once a month, and I have never had a bad experience there. You SENIOR guys bitch about someone putting "SUGENITE" in the transponder on the C-X, yet you protect some idiot that takes a picture of himself, in uniform, shooting at the companies propaganda. You SENIOR guys, bitch about the company not getting incident info out to you fast enough. You SENIOR guys bitch about the TSA treating you like terrorists, instead of crewmembers. Guess what, we are NOT airline pilots...we are airline passengers. Again, I have never hada problem with any TSA personel. I do not check my bags. I just play the game, and be nice to them.

Seems to me that you SENIOR guys bitch about the little stuff, while us JUNIOR guys are bitching about MONEY.

 

[pilotpat]

Can someone pass the popcorn?

 

[CA1900]

You SENIOR guys bitch about the lack of service at First Aviation at TEB. Personally, I only go through there maybe once a month, and I have never had a bad experience there.

OK, I'll play: I'm a junior guy, and I've gotten some godawful service from First. Repeatedly. The pleasure last week was walking 1/4-mile back and forth repeatedly to stock my airplane because we were parked way around the corner, as far from the locker as possible.

You SENIOR guys ... you protect some idiot ...

Having met the gentleman in question, he's not "some idiot." He's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. And if you do something stupid that causes an unjust firing, that same union will work to help you keep your job, too.

You SENIOR guys, bitch about the company not getting incident info out to you fast enough.

So do us junior guys.

You SENIOR guys bitch about the TSA treating you like terrorists, instead of crewmembers. Guess what, we are NOT airline pilots...

We are pilots for an FAA-certificated air carrier. That it doesn't cater to the general public does not change that fact.

Again, I have never had a problem with any TSA personel. I do not check my bags. I just play the game, and be nice to them.

So all the liquids you bring with you are in 3-oz containers, in a quart-size ziploc bag? Or do you depend on your "being nice to them" -- and your uniform from your air carrier -- to exempt you from the rules the rest of the airline passengers follow?

Seems to me that you SENIOR guys bitch about the little stuff, while us JUNIOR guys are bitching about MONEY.

Were you that guy in ground school telling your fellow pilots to find a vending machine for dinner and keep the equipment moving?


Let go of the hatred, man. The end result will be the same, you'll live longer, and you'll enjoy your day a hell of a lot more.

 

[gunfyter]

We have been through this already.

PICs switching fleets has no affect on the number of SIC upgrades.

If there are 3000 pilots there will be 2000 PICs and 1000 SICs.

Switching fleets just increases the total number of training events.


I don't know what seniority number you are ... but whatever it is ... divide it by 2 then multiply by 3. Thats how many pilots need to be on the property before you will upgrade.

In the meantime my standing bid for the 2000EX and the G-IV stands.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Seems to me that you SENIOR guys bitch about the little stuff, while us JUNIOR guys are bitching about MONEY.

Since you don't want to answer any of my questions, I'll have to assume you don't know what you're talking about. If this job is such a financial hardship, maybe you shouldn't have come here.

I started here at $27000, and was exceedingly grateful to the pilots here for the incredible effort required to make the bypass drives a success. Do you know what captain pay was then?

For the 7&7 and 17-day (similar to current reserve, except defined days off and no extra money for extra days worked): Yr 1 = $37560; yr 2 = $39816; yr 3 = 47208. I was happy to get it.

Your current payscale? On 7&7 (not an option as a newbie when I started), $39000-$42998 yrs 1-3. On reserve, $46,286-51,030. You're working less for more money. Quit yer bitchin'! If you didn't know you were going to be on FO pay for a few years, you shouldn't have come here, and in fact have no business being in aviation, since it's that way everywhere.

I'd be happy to see the IBB result in a pay raise for FOs, but you definitely do not have it bad. Be a man and stop blaming your lack of financial planning on the bad ol' "type-collecting" PICs.

 

[skiandsurf]

Be a man and stop blaming your lack of financial planning on the bad ol' "type-collecting" PICs.

Its because of my financial planning that allows me to continue this job.

I have no problem with a Beechjet or Ultra Captain moving out of the plane. But when a bid comes out for 30 captain positions, and 20 of those seats are taken to current captains, it delays the rest of us. If the company refilled those seats that were vacated by a captain movement, I wouldnt have a problem at all. But I dont think they replace them. I think the company is fat on captains, and is happy to grow the FO list without replacing empty captains seats.

When, during the interview, the company tells us of upgrading within 2-3 yrs, and then I only see 5-10 upgrades per months, it gets frustrating to see these guys jumping from plane to plane.

You guys come on here and rant about how good this job is and how the other jobs suck, but you dont talk about the 2 incidents this week.

Now get back to more important gripes, like crewfood and First Aviation.

 

[gunfyter]

You should hane listed to me when I posted this on 3-29-2006

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=75873&highlight=5+years

Yes but ... you can estimate the BEST case based on good economic conditions....

Thats why 2 yrs is BS. 4yrs IF all goes well.
​

 

[RideandDrive]

I don't understand the logic that because the pay really sucked pre contract the current pay of $39k for fo isn't that bad? Most places are at least 60% of captain pay and the fo pay is not. The reality is the pay in the right seat sucks and is inadequate for the job demanded.