NetJets Pilots to Picket Meeting of Berkshire Hathaway Shareholders

[coolyokeluke]

Catyaak,

You suggest the pilots should just walk away if they don't like their work conditions. You know as well as anybody that there are always going to be more pilot applicants than pilot jobs. These people don't have unlimited resources to just quit a job on principle. Sad but true. They are justified in trying to improve their working conditions.

I don't really see the pilots marketing themselves as the safest pilots out there to you. They're simply using the marketing of the company against the company in contract negotiations. The company can't very well go and refute it's own lines, can it? It's a legitimate tactic in trying to win more concessions. You accused others of having a thin skin on this board but you chose to take offense at the claim.

Then you assert that by acting as the devil's advocate you should be receiving the gratitude of these employees for pointing out weaknesses in their argument. If that was truly your intent you could certainly be more diplomatic. They have been in unproductive contract talks for three years, this is their livelihood, and you come across in a less than friendly matter and expect objectivity. You encountered human nature and you should hardly be suprised. If I was at NetJets you'd be on my ignore list as well.

As a pilot I can't see why you wouldn't be supportive of their efforts. When one pilot group's compensation raises it has a ripple effect throughout the industry, the opposite holds true as well.

 

[bigD]

That's one hell of a post for a guy that's on a lot of ignore lists. What's interesting about this discussion is that there are a lot of very knowledgeable people contributing to this thread, but somewhere it turned into a pissing contest.

 

[slowto250]

Catyaak,

I'd quote your last post, but don't want to use up all the bandwidth here.

What you are witnessing here firsthand, is simply a natural reaction to the plight NJ pilots are faced with, collectively. Frustration. Born out of good faith collective bargaining that has been circumvented by a company determined to impose it's will, no matter how unfair it may be.

Every day that passes without a resolution to their ammendable contract represents money in the bank to Warren B., and his "hired guns".

It would be foolhardy to expect this hard working and competent workforce to keep a cool head, during this artificially protracted process that underscores these current negotiations. Whenever a deck is stacked like it is at NJ, it is bound to create dissention. In this case, it is stacked in favor of mgmt., and labor unrest is again, a very natural consequence. When stacked too much in the favor of labor, or it's representative unions, companies falter or fail. The real secret, is to find equilibrium. The short history of American business points to very few achieving this balance. (USW, UAW, IAM, TWU, and the industries they serve, just to name a few.)

The scales have been tipped too far in this case. When they approach a better balance, the unrest will cease, and the NJ pilot's can get back to what they do best. They are professional enough to know that this situation has become a very real distraction, and look forward I'm sure, to getting back to what they do best.

Some of your points are well taken, but perhaps you should walk a mile in their shoes, to fully understand their mindset.

 

[CatYaaak]

Yaak,

Go back and read Netjetwife's last post. She hit the nail on the head. The COMPANY makes those claims in most of their advertising. We go to recurrent sim twice a year. Also, once a year we go to company recurrent, where we review company policies, FAR's, practice removing and exiting the emergency exit from the aircraft, jump in the pool and actually inflate a life raft and life vests and practice survival techniques, actually put a fire out with a fire extinguisher, discuss and review good CRM practices, and quite a long list of other procedures, which I'm pretty sure most corporate flight departments don't do. SO are we better trained? Maybe. Certainly the value of doing these things is debatable, but I gotta tell ya, it's a real eye-opener doing the life raft drills in the pool. Gives a pretty good perspective of what we'll be dealing with if we ever have to ditch in a cold, heaving ocean in the dark. How many times a year does your company make you do this? Still, are we better trained? Again, hard to say. I'd say we train MORE than most corporate operators, but better? Again, maybe. The COMPANY sure likes to brag that we are better trained than corporate or charter. And our argument (well, part of our argument) is that if we're better trained, shouldn't we at least be PAID like the corporate operators whom we're supposedly better trained and safer than?

"At it's foundation, and intrinsic to that salary, is the pilot being available to the company....all the time"

Interesting statment. So, what you're saying, is that after getting out of bed, at say 8:00 AM at home, going about your normal daily routine, and then the boss calls at 6:00 PM and says I need to fly from New York to San Francisco at 9:00 tonight, is a SAFE thing to do? The beauty of Netjets is that we can actually refuse doing this sort of thing without fear of reprisal, courtesy of our union-negotiated contract and union protections. Otherwise, how do you refuse without fear of being terminated? I've never been a big fan of unions, but they do serve a purpose. According to your statement above, it appears you're saying that it's okay to fly fatigued or do something unsafe because you're being paid lots of money to do it. Yes yes, I'm sure you just have a wonderful job where you can refuse any trip you like and not have to worry about your job. Unfortunately, a lot of the corporate and charter world doesn't work like that. I believe there's a Gulfstream-shaped indentation on the side of a mountain near Aspen that proves that point (along with MANY other accidents that have similar themes).
So you're saying that because we are allowed to make good choices that we should be paid less than our corporate counterparts. Obviously you've made up your mind, so discussing this with you is pointless. I just like to get on here every once in a while and make a few points myself.
By the way, prior to Netjets, I flew corporate and charter. I did the 24/7/365 availability thing. I did the non-union thing. I've walked away from jobs too. Netjets is actually a very good job. And our pilots DO deserve good wages. I'm not saying we're any more PRODUCTIVE than any other operator out there, but my experience is that our pilots do the same thing, so why shouldn't we make good money?
Finally, in general, you really seem to be against us getting a good wage. Just curious, but why is that? We aren't any threat to you. In fact, in a lot of ways it could HELP our industry overall. Isn't it time for wages to start coming back up? Why so much bitterness against our pilots, and in particular, our union? I guess productivity can be debated, but where else do you figure they are lying to us and making things up? This has been the best leadership I've seen in a long time. When they say a certain task will be accomplished, holy cow!, it gets accomplished! The grievances that have been resolved under this leadership (by the way, a grievance is where the COMPANY violates the contract THEY agreed to in the first place) have been one of the best testaments to their effectiveness.

Oh well, I'm outta here.

Recurrent twice a year, safety training involving exits, jumping in pools, inflating the rafts, getting hoisted out of the water, putting out the fires in the big tin can, getting out of the sinking tin can, MedAire training, internal reviews of company procedures etc. Dedicated CRM classes, International ops classes, classes..etc, etc. Well, you may be pretty sure only YOU do that, but you're wrong, especially when talking about larger corporate operators that adhere to NBAA recommendations. Those same companies were involved in drawing those recommendations up in the first place. NJA certainly didn't invent them. So are you better trained? No, but you do meet the expected standard and do the same things they've been doing. So that's good.

To answer your question, I do the raft-raft inflating thing just once per year, but that or even taking he big slide into the water isn't as fun as an altitude chamber. I've been through it twice for companies....you?

Then I see that you've inserted the word "Safe" along with "bettter trained", assigning that claim to your company...disowning it yet standing by it. Please refer me to the NJA's company statement that makes the claim you are "safer" than corporate operators. It's being bandied about so much, you must be able to find it easily.

If I refuse a trip due to fatigue I won't be terminated because the company prioritizes safety as much as I do, and values my word. That's one of the judgements I'm paid to make, just like any other safety issue, and if I'm flying fatigued it's my own fault. Paying me to take a trip is subordinate to staying alive. They understand this.

If it appears to you that Im saying its ok to "fly fatigued and do something unsafe", then I suggest you turn your prizm around because you're seeing it backwards. Before you question the integrity of my work, or put into question my professionalism by suggesting I compromise safety, I suggest you fly with me. Who knows, you might even meet my standard on that issue.

As far as your union protection against termination, it's every pilot's responsiblity to not accept a trip if they can't meet the physical or mental requirements. The regs require that of you, it's not an invention of your union. If you need a union to protect your job against wrongful termination for obeying the regs, who's dumber?...the company who wants unsafe pilots to fly?...or the pilot who works for such a company? If that's what they do, I suggest you leave now.

The Gulstream-indentation on the mountain just right of the approach into Aspen wasn't a corporate-operated aircraft, it was a charter aircraft. As was the Gulfstream flying into Houston. As were both recent Challenger accidents. As are many of the business aircraft accidents that are sometimes conveniently labeled "corporate". Tell me, which are the "MANY (your emphasis) other accidents with similar themes" of corporate aircraft....those high-paying job, comparison aircraft? You know the difference between charter and corporate, and if there are so MANY that you claim it proves your fatigue/doing-unsafe-things-for-fear-of-termination point, you should come up with a list for me in no time. Just the NTSB investigation file #s will suffice...I'll read them if you provide those.

True, despite the numerous empty threats to "close down my flight department" by a few here, you are indeed no threat to me. I'm not against you getting better wages, I'm all for it. I think you'd have a better chance at getting it if you pursued it logically, instead of selective, rhetorical comparisons that don't mean squat to accounting ledgers and that reach a point of insulting others, or subjective, varying feelings of "fairness" that have never won at a bargaining table.

 

[El Chupacabra]

We never Rest on our Laurels

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I have a PDF document. "NETJETS PILOTS -- The best in the sky" ​

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http://marquisjet.com/pdf/pilotwhite.pdf​

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The answer Mr Caat is looking for is contained therein.​

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Now the document doesn't say you suck ... it just says we are best. (So by inference...)​

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ASAP is turning it around on the company and want to know why those less trained (by inference because we are more trained) less safe (by inference)... why are they paid so much more when you say we are the best?​

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Now Mr Caat be nice be honest.... I am being very gentlemanly in this post...You understand what they are doing... don't you.​

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The ASAP statements were not directed to you. They are used in an argument to hoist our foes by their own petards.​

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You hate Unions and You hate ASAP. Fine but on this point you are presenting a false argument.​

 

[CatYaaak]

Wait a minute Cat. In a different post you talk about not expecting to be paid a reasonable salary and having time off. In this post you say having time off and being unproductive is well worth every penny they pay you. Talking in circles again? Which is it? Your arrogance speaks for it'self. You can be replaced like every other pilot in this world. What country did you say you were from? Start practicing those Lunar Landings.

Work on those comprehension skills. I said that in ASAPs reckoning, I'd be deemed "unproductive". This reckoning, however, only matters to those that buy into ASAPs airline-esque equation...namely......you and your co-workers who have an agenda for pretending it's valid. Everyone else, namely the "NBAA average salary world" that you apply this equation to because that's the salary you want, knows it's a bogus measure of productivity because 1) corporate ops aren't related to directly generating revenue like you are, so not tied to that model, and 2) in the corporate world people are paid to be on the job, whether that involves flying that day or not, let alone how many hours. Company time is company time.....you guys don't come anywhere near what the norm is.

The reality is I'm very productive measured by the valid equation, not ASAPs insipid apples-to-oranges one.

I'm not arrogant, but definitely all-American, and know full-well I can be replaced (I've replaced a few myself) but there are much larger concerns I deal with at work than that. One thing for sure though, Oh Wise One.... while it may indeed happen, it'll never be by you.

 

[netjetwife]

'Yaaak, reread the posts made by Slow and CYL. They show a very good understanding of the situation. Perhaps I threw you off by my use of the word "joke"? Think dark humor used to combat stress. Absolutely correct, is the viewpoint that the pilots are using the company's sales pitch against them in the War of the Words. Let there be no mistake about it--that is exactly what is currently going on. I am sorry that you feel other pilots were caught in the cross-fire. The brochure which ASAP passed out was not written for them. You will find nothing disrespectful on the website created to help other pilots who have questions about NJA--www.asapflightdeck.com I should also point out that owners and other NJ employees should now visit a different site for updates-- www.nj6s.com If SU held other pilots in as low regard as you say, 'Yaaak, they wouldn't be reaching out to them as they are.

It isn't fair to judge NJ pilots' professional bearing ON THE JOB, by their responses to your provocative posts, 'Yaaak. Do recall that I went to Omaha and met some of these very pilots. They had no problem letting the designated spokesman speak for them and walked the line like the professionals they are. Frankly, 'Yaaak, you make a habit of bringing the worst out in them. Your articulately worded insults are offensive, nonetheless. I did not miss your statement about my husband, and I found your characterization of the NJ struggle as a "Pity Party" to be particularly objectionable. As was pointed out to you, their responses were in keeping with human nature.

The NJ pilots and their families are in the midst of a long drawn-out fight for fair wages. No one should be surprised that off the job we will see signs of "battle fatigue" and short tempers. If you will refrain from calling them whiners and suggesting that their efforts to improve a bad situation are nothing more than a "squabble" then perhaps they will cease the name-calling. Our complaints are valid. A civil tone and a show of support will go far towards raising the "Maturity Boat". In other words, please stop throwing bricks in the boat. You aren't helping matters. These are tough times for the NJ pilots/families and it will likely get worse before it gets better. The pilots are showing great resolve, but we would be fool-hardy to think that it won't be tested by management.

 

[CatYaaak]

CatYaak

I've actually enjoyed most of your posts, and in fact find you quite amusing, but what is your end game?

You have obviously managed to isolate yourself quite nicely; few are seeing your point of view on a fractional address at this message board...so, now what?

You say you have an adoring wife who has sacrificed much so that you can be a white slave to a bank account. Must she endure nights of further boredom and frustration as you play mental masturbation on a computer key board?

Your billable rate as a corporate pilot is, as you have indicated, would work out quite high as an hourly. Is this something you really want getting out? What other inefficiencies of your company's operations should the shareholders be privvy to? Is it time that they reevaluated those efficiencies and considered shutting down their flight department?

You have said in the past that the fractional model doesn't work. That's strange:- 5,000 owners disagree! So you say we don't deserve more because we produce more "billable" hours per year? That's a strange economic perspective, not on our union's part but your own.

Please enlighten us further as to your wealth of knowledge of this accounting. Do you work for Arthur Anderson?!!

I'm guilty of over-posting today, so I'll address your legitimate questions one-by-one.

1) I'll try as many engame moves as it takes to achieve complete global domination.

2) See previous response

3a) I didn't say I had an adoring wife...having a wife would anger my concubines. And far from being bored and frustrated, they are in fact sleeping happily...all worn out after a long, hard day at "the office".

3b) You use the term "white slave" as if there's something wrong with that. Don't knock it until you've lived in the kind of foreign country where "fun" without females consists of...of...of......well, nothing.

3c) which is the reason I use this computer interaction... to help me be well-rounded, because despite their gracious, giving attitudes, they really don't mentally challenge me, it's not their forte', and no way could I ever teach any of them to play chess. Even the smartest one...she'd giggle way too much and distract me. Still, when you receive gifts from your employer, it's rude to be picky.

3d) "mastrubation"......no need. For further information, see responses 3a, 3b, and 3c.

4) My current flight department doesn't answer to shareholders. They have no shareholders, and now that I think of it, barring a honest-to-god, full-blown, shootin' kind of Revolution just like in the movies or news stock footage, they don't answer to anyone. Even referring to it as a "company" is kind of a loose, non-accurate term. Inefficiencies?......man, I could tell you some stories!..........but of course I'd never break that confidence, because that's also part of the deal that comes with a good salary.

5a) Au contraire mon ami, I've stated many times that the frac model works well and is probably the best option for a certain niche market. I've only stated that if you raise costs to the customer, the niche will shrink, because other alternatives make more sense economically for those on the high or low-end bubbles. It's not like you offer the best service possible...you have inherent disadvantages built into your scheme, especially for what you can buy on the high-end.

5b) But I only bring this point up to those using the "pass costs along to them, the rich can pay more" refrain, who don't seem to realize that wealthy people and certainly successful companies usually don't get that way by being stupid, or unwilling to adapt to changing conditions. They'll find or go back to options that are more appealing. After all, aviation ain't white slavery....you can't just keep people around and handy by your mere say-so.

5c) I've always said you deserve more...but that's because you're pilots. I've only pointed out is the flaw in comparing either the job or the salary to corporate flight departments..the differences that come with you guys being hamstrung by being involved in directly generating revenue in a model that was in-part structured on (and therefore depends on) low labor costs. Corporate pilots don't have "billable" hours or customers or even remotely resembles that model. That's just a basic reality of the type of company you went to work for, it's nothing personal. Due to (see responses 5a and 5b), your best bet is finding the money as it exists....your second best, riskier option is trying to wring more out of the customer. You can educate them, but so much of what I see here is B.S., trying to be passed off as "education". Most of them are way smarter than me, you're not going to fool them with B.S. when it concerns their bank accounts. You have to use things that are legitimate.

6) Honestly, I've been suprised that enlightenment has been needed at all. Employees should know about the business they're engaged in, especially when claiming to be professionals deserving professional salaries facing-off with people who invented the business. It's for your own good to know it. It seems silly and counterproductive to me that so many trounce out any statement, any comparison, and expect it to be believed. A couple posts ago, a guy asks me to....and with no sense of irony whatsoever...prove a negative about a the ludicrous statement on safety coming from his camp, as if that's persuasive. What's scary is that he probably thinks he can get by in Life by demanding such nonsensicle things. Wow, is he in for a suprise! The thread here is rife with other, similar absurdly emotional, tangental responses...so many that if Aristotle were to re-appear on earth from the past he'd take one look around and immediately commit suicide, thinking he'd failed in promoting that whole...you know..."Logic Thing". For the sake of you all, I hope those tactics aren't used when you sit down for serious talks, because my long-dead grandma could whittle you down to nothing using a garden hoe through the giant chinks in that armor.

7) No, I never worked for Arthur Anderson, but now that you mention it, I think the giggly one asleep in the other room used to be a CPA or something for them prior to the hard times. Hmmm...if I ever do teach her how to play, I'll have to remember to never leave her alone in the room with the chessboard while a game's in progress.

 

[TonyC]

There are very few "full time" jobs in or outside aviation where your time is completely your own and untethered to the workplace 25 weeks out of the year. ... (and the argument that he's away from home when he's working.....well, he's a pilot, and it kind of goes with the territory).

You'd think a pilot, of all people, would know and respect that territory. "Completely your own [time] ... and untethered to the workplace"? HAA! Try not showing up at the workplace (airplane) when it's time to go. Talkin' 'bout makin' yourself look SILLY!


A typical wage-earner that gives 40 hours a week, every week, with 2 weeks of vacation will be away from home 2,000 hours each year.



A pilot who spends half of every month on the road will spend 4,380 hours away from home each year. 1,460 of those hours will be spent sleeping in a bed not his own.



If you're not at home to tuck the kids in bed, you're working.




.

 

[CatYaaak]

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I have a PDF document. "NETJETS PILOTS -- The best in the sky" ​

http://marquisjet.com/pdf/pilotwhite.pdf​

The answer Mr Caat is looking for is contained therein.

Now the document doesn't say you suck ... it just says we are best. (So by inference...)

ASAP is turning it around on the company and want to know why those less trained (by inference because we are more trained) less safe (by inference)... why are they paid so much more when you say we are the best?

Now Mr Caat be nice be honest.... I am being very gentlemanly in this post...You understand what they are doing... don't you.

The ASAP statements were not directed to you. They are used in an argument to hoist our foes by their own petards.



You hate Unions and You hate ASAP. Fine but on this point you are presenting a false argument.​

Here's a gentlemanly answer..a nice, honest one.

I understand what you're doing. It's very obvious when someone is drawing inferences that play to their own agendas. Your company does it, and your pilot group is now doing it, but to the the point of denigrating the safety record and culture of another pilot group, without cause, and they did it while knowing the company doesn't even really believe "the best pilots" sales pitch.

How can you "hoist your foes on their own petards" when they're fully aware they themselves are full of it? You can't, so it's clear that the real consumer of ASAPs safety inference is the same as the "best pilots" sales pitch...the owners...which brings us right back into the realm of denigrating the reputation of another pilot group to non-peers. It's patently obvious that it's not something that was meant to stay between you and your management.

It's repeatedly implied here by many that this denigration is Righteous...and not even based on facts (including the more-trained claim) which are never forthcoming..... but for self-serving excuses that range from "it's no big deal", to "you don't understand what we're doing" , to "battle fatigue" (although those of us who've been shot at won't buy that last one).

The inference process is always shaky at best, but where it led with regards to using another pilot group as a point of comaparison in the way ASAP does to simply strike a chord isn't gentlemanly, isn't nice, and in this case, certainly isn't honest. Yet, you ask those things of me....one of that group, and others actually want carte blanche support. Am I supposed to pretend that I'm part of an aviation vacumn that evidently some think exists outside the NJA world?

It's also not gentlemanly to assert that I "hate unions" knowing that it will strike a chord with some. As you well know, I've never said that, and been a member myself. That's not unlike Grizz telling others that I "hold all NJA pilots in contempt", which is of course ridiculous. He declares this to them because I find him hypocritical on many counts. He hopes to persuade people I don't even know to believe it, and therefore call into question anything I say on that basis alone, and that it will somehow dilute my opinion of him. Frankly, it only reinforces it.

And that's about as nice as I can say it.