NetJets Interview Question

[Sctt@NJA]

1.6 VFR does not provide any kind of obstacle clearance assurance.

Interesting that there are pilots out there that think it does.

 

[DO-82 driver]

If I could only make a 1.6 I'd be concerned regaurdless of the wx.

Do you really want to depart ASE knowing you can barely make 1.6%?

Just because its legal doesn't mean is the smart thing to do.

A lesson many people in various positions at various factionals should learn

 

[VVJM265]

A 3.3% gradient is the nominal climb gradient required to keep you away from the minimal 1:40 (2.5%) Obstacle Obstruction Surface (OIS), even during a diverse departure, and is equal to 200’/NM [200’ / (6076’/NM) * 100% = 3.29%]. This is mentioned in Sec 5-2-5 of the AIM, in chapter 2 of the Instrument Procedures Handbook, and in the TERPS.

My question is where are you guys getting guys getting 1.6% from? I don’t even see it in FAR 23 or 25. Unless I missed something, these are the minimum requirements for twin engine airplanes:

FAR 23NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES
23.65; Normal climb: 8.3%
23.66; Takeoff climb, one engine inop: as spec’d by the manufacture
23.67; Final climb, one engine inop: 1.5%

FAR 25 TRANSPORT CATEGORY AIRPLANES
25.119; Normal climb: 8.3%
25.121.b; 2nd segment climb, one engine inop: 2.4%
25.121.c; 3rd segment climb, one engine inop: 1.2%

​

Would someone explain where does the 1.6% comes from? It would only equate to a 100’/NM gradient and certainly would not give any obstruction clearance. This is the first time I have heard of it and it doesn’t seem to make much sense.

Thanks,
VVJM265

 

[be-400xpdriver]

A 3.3% gradient is the nominal climb gradient required to keep you away from the minimal 1:40 (2.5%) Obstacle Obstruction Surface (OIS), even during a diverse departure, and is equal to 200’/NM [200’ / (6076’/NM) * 100% = 3.29%]. This is mentioned in Sec 5-2-5 of the AIM, in chapter 2 of the Instrument Procedures Handbook, and in the TERPS.

My question is where are you guys getting guys getting 1.6% from? I don’t even see it in FAR 23 or 25. Unless I missed something, these are the minimum requirements for twin engine airplanes:

FAR 23NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES
23.65; Normal climb: 8.3%
23.66; Takeoff climb, one engine inop: as spec’d by the manufacture
23.67; Final climb, one engine inop: 1.5%

FAR 25 TRANSPORT CATEGORY AIRPLANES
25.119; Normal climb: 8.3%
25.121.b; 2nd segment climb, one engine inop: 2.4%
25.121.c; 3rd segment climb, one engine inop: 1.2%



​

Would someone explain where does the 1.6% comes from? It would only equate to a 100’/NM gradient and certainly would not give any obstruction clearance. This is the first time I have heard of it and it doesn’t seem to make much sense.

Thanks,
VVJM265

2.4% is what the factory test pilots can do with perfect flying and a perfect brand new airplane. The faa figures you are not as good as test pilot (unless you work for xjt) and your plane is not in perfect shape. So they do a .8% subtraction for pilot technique and for the plane and come up with 1.6% net climb gradient

 

[d91papa]

2.4% is what the factory test pilots can do with perfect flying and a perfect brand new airplane. The faa figures you are not as good as test pilot (unless you work for xjt) and your plane is not in perfect shape. So they do a .8% subtraction for pilot technique and for the plane and come up with 1.6% net climb gradient

Yup, that's my understanding too. Regarding ASE, isn't there a restrictive climb gradient requirement even when departing VFR? I haven't looked at ASE for awhile.

 

[Wacopilot]

[quote=RNObased]Max Power,
I don't fly a little jet for NJA, I fly the bigger ones, and the performance is very very good. However graident numbers are still in play.

I guess the point I need to make a little better is this. You come to NJA you don't have a book lining out the 20 or so airports that you fly into on a regular basis. You will hit 20 different airport on given tour, easy. This isn't 121 flying, not even close."

I'm about to start at NetJets and my airline flew to 123 airports.....and yes, we did have the numbers for all of them. You guys are dorks.....use your off time to golf, fish, or anything else that is normal. I sure hope this isn't the flightdeck conversation I get to look forward to..... RNObased, maybe you will be my instructor but since I flew an airplane bigger than yours, do I get to teach you??????

Awesome

Waco.

 

[be-400xpdriver]

I'm about to start at NetJets and my airline flew to 123 airports.....and yes, we did have the numbers for all of them. You guys are dorks.....use your off time to golf, fish, or anything else that is normal. I sure hope this isn't the flightdeck conversation I get to look forward to..... RNObased, maybe you will be my instructor but since I flew an airplane bigger than yours, do I get to teach you??????

Awesome

Waco.

Come fly with me in the 400xp. All I do is talk about football, beer, and jessica simpson.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

123 airports! Thats impressive. We use thousands. Each year Netjets will fly to more than 123 nations.

I am sure you will have lots of fun here. If you are a little nicer in real life than your post suggests.

Ok so this is a childish post. I know it.

 

[Wacopilot]

I'm just picking on RNOBased, his airplane weighed less than mine and I wanted to feel cool. So football.... now that I know something about.... and Jessica Simpson, yummy. Scott, are there really 123 nations? If so, wow!!! NJA is awesome.

Waco

 

[CheeseDick]

I'm just picking on RNOBased, his airplane weighed less than mine and I wanted to feel cool. So football.... now that I know something about.... and Jessica Simpson, yummy. Scott, are there really 123 nations? If so, wow!!! NJA is awesome.

Waco

f dat, they are still missing out on 70 or so nations. That's just coming up short. . . kind of like an Ohio State athletic program.

 

[VVJM265]

2.4% is what the factory test pilots can do with perfect flying and a perfect brand new airplane. The faa figures you are not as good as test pilot (unless you work for xjt) and your plane is not in perfect shape. So they do a .8% subtraction for pilot technique and for the plane and come up with 1.6% net climb gradient

OK, the math adds up & the concept makes sense, but what is the source regulation that ties a 1.6% climb gradient to the minimun required for a VFR departure???

Thanks again,
265

 

[RNObased]

[quote=RNObased]Max Power,
I don't fly a little jet for NJA, I fly the bigger ones, and the performance is very very good. However graident numbers are still in play.

I guess the point I need to make a little better is this. You come to NJA you don't have a book lining out the 20 or so airports that you fly into on a regular basis. You will hit 20 different airport on given tour, easy. This isn't 121 flying, not even close."

I'm about to start at NetJets and my airline flew to 123 airports.....and yes, we did have the numbers for all of them. You guys are dorks.....use your off time to golf, fish, or anything else that is normal. I sure hope this isn't the flightdeck conversation I get to look forward to..... RNObased, maybe you will be my instructor but since I flew an airplane bigger than yours, do I get to teach you??????

Awesome

Waco.

Waco, That wasn't the point that I was trying to make. Re-read what I posted and go from there. All I was saying is crack a book.

Ah, nevermind you read what you want to read. Do you feel cool now Waco??? Dork..

 

[be-400xpdriver]

OK, the math adds up & the concept makes sense, but what is the source regulation that ties a 1.6% climb gradient to the minimun required for a VFR departure???

Thanks again,
265

There is no reg. that says VFR climb requirment is 1.6% It is the minimum climb requirment to comply with how the plane was certified part 25, oie 2nd segmant. So if it is VFR all you have to meet is the maximum take off wt. to meet climb requirments chart, 1.6%. If you are too heavy then it is like not haveing enough runway, you cant go.

 

[Wacopilot]

I'll never feel cool around you RNObased....you fly the "big planes to thousands of airports" Lighten up......I was just picking on you. And yes, I will read any book you tell me to read. Now, back to that Jessica Simpson thing......... yummy.

Waco

 

[VVJM265]

There is no reg. that says VFR climb requirment is 1.6% It is the minimum climb requirment to comply with how the plane was certified part 25, oie 2nd segmant. So if it is VFR all you have to meet is the maximum take off wt. to meet climb requirments chart, 1.6%. If you are too heavy then it is like not having enough runway, you cant go.

be-400xpdriver,

Thanks for the feedback. I’ve been digging on this one for a few days because I’ve never seen the 1.6% climb gradient used. Think I’ve finally figured in out.

The way I was trained, the way I taught in the C-26, and the way we teach in the Navy ME syllabus is essentially this: if taking off into VMC, regardless if IFR or VFR, the game plan for a single engine scenario after takeoff is essentially see and avoid, declare an emergency, and turn down wind for the full stop. This presumes that the aircraft is at or under MGTOW and all runway distance requirements are met.

If taking off into IMC, I’ve always been of the mindset that if the charts show that you can’t make the SID climb gradient (200’/NM or as published) on a single engine then you better take on less weight, weather that is gas, pax, or cargo is the aircraft commander’s call. I can’t find that in a reg anywhere, but it certainly is conservative and will keep you from smacking into a mountain.

The only place I see the 0.8 reduction mentioned in FAR 25.115, which states:
(b) The net takeoff flight path data must be determined so that they represent the actual takeoff flight paths (determined in accordance with §25.111 and with paragraph (a) of this section) reduced at each point by a gradient of climb equal to—
(1) 0.8 percent for two-engine airplanes;

To me, this says that the net flight path is calculated as actual minus 0.8% gradient for each segment.

So, for 2nd segment, the net is calculated as 2.4% - 0.8% = 1.6%
For 3rd segment, the net is calculated as 1.2% - 0.8% = 0.4%.

Therefore, the 1.6% only applies to the 2nd segment to 400’, or clear of obstacles, as you stated.

Found a good chart on Fig 14-2 of AC 25-7 that shows this. It really seems to me that this is just a safety margin, probably to account for pilot technique, old airplanes, etc as suggested in your previous post, but the aircraft still has to be able to actually climb at 2.4% & 1.8%. It does give you obstacle clearance, if you take the time to compute the distance out from the runway, height of the obstruction and then crunch the numbers in the charts.

Hope this helps others who might be scratching their heads on this one. I’ve sure if I missed something, others will chime in…

Fly safe all,
VVJM265