NetJets App - Question ... DOH

[Ultra Grump]

...I'm just saying it's hard and cut the guy a little slack. It takes awhile to become adjusted to a new reality but I'm sure most, if not all, will do it well.

Nice sob story. So I should do my partner's job because he's no longer an RJ or Airbus captain? How long should I cut them slack before they start to do the job they were hired and trained to do?

 

[Archie Bunker]

If you were released to IOE and haven't been paired with an IOE Capt then it may be a records issue. You probably aren't showing IOE in the system. Either that or you are shown as IOE and X IOE Captains are hard to come by.

I'd be bored out of my mind if I were in your shoes. 6 months of rot sounds like a grievance waiting to be filed.

I'm positive that it is a shortage of X IOE Capts. I received the "released to IOE" message on my blackberry, so all my paperwork must be in order, or else they wouldn't have sent it, right?

Actually, I'm kind of getting used to being a slacker. I watch The Big Lebowski on a weekly basis as my personal motivation. It's going to be tough when I actually have to work for a living again.

 

[Mach92]

I'm positive that it is a shortage of X IOE Capts. I received the "released to IOE" message on my blackberry, so all my paperwork must be in order, or else they wouldn't have sent it, right?

Actually, I'm kind of getting used to being a slacker. I watch The Big Lebowski on a weekly basis as my personal motivation. It's going to be tough when I actually have to work for a living again.

All you have to do IF you want to fly is call Dave C your CP. He will get you flying.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Glass....

I will afford every new hire the same consideration as I did the hundreds of people NJA hired who were from MidWest, USAir, United, Delta, Air Net or any other company.

I don't think its professional to "cut anyone slack" for not following SOP's or not being attentive to the unique features of the Fractional industry.

Safety and Service should not be compromised.

Others adapted......

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

I'm positive that it is a shortage of X IOE Capts. I received the "released to IOE" message on my blackberry, so all my paperwork must be in order, or else they wouldn't have sent it, right?

Actually, I'm kind of getting used to being a slacker. I watch The Big Lebowski on a weekly basis as my personal motivation. It's going to be tough when I actually have to work for a living again.

Wouldn't it be funny if you got your UPS class before you flew a revenue leg for NJA!?!

 

[doylehargraves]

I just hope all the inefficient spending they do doesn't eventually cost them. You know, Delta ran their business like there were money trees too.

 

[Diesel]

Archie you should call Records or Flight Training if you want to get off the couch. It's possible you were lost in the system. Ask them what the deal is.

Or records could do their job instead of us doing it for them.

 

[notaNJApilot]

Humans are fallible.

 

[skiandsurf]

just to add my thoughts...

Coming from an airline background, the first thing that we see here is waste and NO communication.

I went thru X training in March. In the class in TOL, there were only 2 of us from NJs and 8 others from other private companies. On the third day of ground school, my partner left (wife had a baby), so I was the only one from NJs, training without a partner. NJs sends in 2 seat subs for my training. Checkride was piece of cake, compared to anything I ever had at I-Air.

After training, I was home for 2 weeks without any contact from NJS. I called the director of training to make sure I was doing the right thing, he did not answer and he did not return the call. I was home for 2.5 months before aircraft training. Then 2 weeks until IOE.

Aircraft training is something new to any of us airline guys. the first time I flew the airbus as captain was with 130 paying passengers onboard, but NJs doesnt think we can fly a twin cessna with passengers onboard.

The NJs job is great. It is not that hard. Clean the plane. Ice, coffee and papers, etc. The guy that did my IOE stressed to me to get EVERYTHING ready, then fu** around.

After being a captain for the past 15 years, I do get brain dead when sitting in the right seat. When I sit in the left seat again, I feel like I am a different pilot. Not sure why, but I have noticed it.

Now lets pick on a NJ captain. We had to get deiced in the morning. Po-dunk airport with not much for equipment. The ramper asked if we wanted deicing now or later ( we are due out in 1 hr and only frost with no precip). I told him go ahead and "get'er dun". The captain says, no lets wait 30 minutes. I told him, it might take this guys 30 minutes to get his stuff up and running, and since there is no precip, lets go ahead and get the guy moving. He is here and willing to get busy. lets go. Captain agreed. The guy finished up just as the pax showed up.....I made the right call.

I talked to my captain today about the I-Air guys, he said its the same story with every group....the retired guys suck, the comair guys suck, the midway guys suck. He has flown with a few of us I-Air guys and has had no complaints.

Now, I would like to add, that there is NO standardization here. I have talked to a couple of I-Air guys that get frustrated by this. I mean guys starting planes with only one guys in the cockpit. This is one of our biggest gripes. But hey, we are new and have to learn a new company and a way of doing things.

Sorry it got long. I might need to add more later.

 

[skiandsurf]

While at an FBO the other day, my captain saw this Ultra IOE guy that is a "little strange" (my captains words not mine). He is doing IOE (with an I-air guy, imagine that). This captain walks away from the plane and starts talking on his phone, meanwhile the new guy has no idea what to do. My captain is telling the new FO (i-air guy) not to worry, it gets better as soon as he is with a different captain. Maybe you know him, been here for 8 yrs, all in the Ultra. Thats got to say something right there.

 

[doylehargraves]

just to add my thoughts...

Coming from an airline background, the first thing that we see here is waste and NO communication.

I went thru X training in March. In the class in TOL, there were only 2 of us from NJs and 8 others from other private companies. On the third day of ground school, my partner left (wife had a baby), so I was the only one from NJs, training without a partner. NJs sends in 2 seat subs for my training. Checkride was piece of cake, compared to anything I ever had at I-Air.

After training, I was home for 2 weeks without any contact from NJS. I called the director of training to make sure I was doing the right thing, he did not answer and he did not return the call. I was home for 2.5 months before aircraft training. Then 2 weeks until IOE.

Aircraft training is something new to any of us airline guys. the first time I flew the airbus as captain was with 130 paying passengers onboard, but NJs doesnt think we can fly a twin cessna with passengers onboard.

The NJs job is great. It is not that hard. Clean the plane. Ice, coffee and papers, etc. The guy that did my IOE stressed to me to get EVERYTHING ready, then fu** around.

After being a captain for the past 15 years, I do get brain dead when sitting in the right seat. When I sit in the left seat again, I feel like I am a different pilot. Not sure why, but I have noticed it.

Now lets pick on a NJ captain. We had to get deiced in the morning. Po-dunk airport with not much for equipment. The ramper asked if we wanted deicing now or later ( we are due out in 1 hr and only frost with no precip). I told him go ahead and "get'er dun". The captain says, no lets wait 30 minutes. I told him, it might take this guys 30 minutes to get his stuff up and running, and since there is no precip, lets go ahead and get the guy moving. He is here and willing to get busy. lets go. Captain agreed. The guy finished up just as the pax showed up.....I made the right call.

I talked to my captain today about the I-Air guys, he said its the same story with every group....the retired guys suck, the comair guys suck, the midway guys suck. He has flown with a few of us I-Air guys and has had no complaints.

Now, I would like to add, that there is NO standardization here. I have talked to a couple of I-Air guys that get frustrated by this. I mean guys starting planes with only one guys in the cockpit. This is one of our biggest gripes. But hey, we are new and have to learn a new company and a way of doing things.

Sorry it got long. I might need to add more later.

You seem to have all the knowledge but offer no solution. It's funny to hear an ex-airline guy talk about waste at a fractional! How many fractionals have gone out of business and how many airlines have gone out of business? The waste at a fractional doesn't even come close to the ridiculous waste that goes on at an airline. Just a thought

 

[skiandsurf]

You seem to have all the knowledge but offer no solution. It's funny to hear an ex-airline guy talk about waste at a fractional! How many fractionals have gone out of business and how many airlines have gone out of business? The waste at a fractional doesn't even come close to the ridiculous waste that goes on at an airline. Just a thought

There is huge waste here at NJs. The difference is that at NJs the company charges the owner, whereas at the airlines theydont pass on the expense to the passengers.

And considering that there is only a handful of fractionals, and their profitabilty is questionable at best. Flexjet making money? Flight Options making money? Citation Shares making money? Netjets owner gave away billions to charity and giving out watches and hats and t-shirts. But are they really making money? I ask you this.....can you give me a detailed fleet breakdown to include deliveries and planes we are to get rid of? How much growth do we really have. And where is that Hawker 4000 that we got in November. That was the delivery date that was announced in september, right?

Dont get me wrong, I am very happy here at NJs. But it wasnt too long ago that United Airlines was making money and growing the fleet. They used to run the APU all the time like we do, they dont do that anymore. Its the attitude of "we cant spend enough" that scares me and most former airline types.

 

[doylehargraves]

I totally agree with you bro. It's hard not to get nervous when you see things like this; only because we've heard it all from braniff, united, and the list goes on. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have a committee on stream-lining things. You know the union should do this and use that as a bargaining tool at negotiations. "look how much money we saved the company", that sort of thing.

 

[skiandsurf]

I am seeing:
Poor SOP's.

I'm not going to stand for it.....here are the SOP's...follow them like everyone else or get the heck out of here.

Questions for Mr. SOP.

1. I flew with one guys that had me write down the runway elevation prior to takeoff and then write down the cruise altitude (RVSM) and compare with the three altimeters. Only one guy has had me do this. Is he standard or non-standard?

2. On the taxi checklist, there is the "FATS". Is it "Flaps, Airbrakes, trims, speeds" or "Flaps, Airspeeds, Trims, Spoilers"? I get 50-50 from the captains. It is written both ways in the books. Most guys dont say anything, but a couple jump all over this wording. What is write Mr. SOP?

3. Is it required to wear a headset on ferry flights. During my IOE we never did, but now everyone else does. It is not a big problem, except most of these guys have their own headsets and we are constantly changing out headsets. It would be easier to not change them and not use them on ferry flights. Is there a right or wrong?

Thanks, just trying to be standard.

 

[Diesel]

1. Technique vs SOP. Thats how he wants to do it in his cockpit. He is following the rule of checking the altimeters in RVSM airspace.

2. What books is it written both ways? The X has it only written one way.

3. Not required on ferry flights. I personally wear it because I can't hear crap. There is an altitude requirement that I would have to look it up. Again its a technique thing. Just because its not required doesn't mean you don't have to wear a headset on the pax legs and not on the ferry legs. Its just to give you the option that if you want you don't have to wear it. Prevents pilots from flying with the speaker on and pax in the back.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Mr Ski....

I would say that you shold look up the verbage for your particular plane as written in the SOP's and use those words.

If the person you are flying with DOES NOT adhere to the SOP's then you are perfectly correct in pointing the descrepencies out in a professional manner and ask to adhere to the Company's procedure.

The reason why some people are doing it and some aren't is because people in the other seat (Left or Right) aren't speaking out.

And before you get too high and mighty.....I have had a number of people, on various tours, correct certain things that I was doing that weren't in compliance with the SOP's. Guess what????? I'm doing them now.

My original popst was meant to bring up the fact that NJA does things differently from other airlines and regionals. Just becasue a person is done with IOE doesn't mean he can go back to the way they used to do things in another life.

 

[Archie Bunker]

What books is it written both ways? The X has it only written one way.

Not true Diesel.

The CE-750 SOP, Page B-14, dated March 1, 2006, has it written:

"Flaps, Airspeeds, Trims, Speedbrakes and Spoilers."

The NetJets Expanded Normal Procedures Checklist, Page 14, dated Oct 10, 2005, has it written:

"1. Ensure the flap/slat handle is in the proper detent, and proper flap/slat positions displayed on the EICAS.
2. Ensure the speed brakes (air brakes) are operational and stowed for takeoff.
3. Ensure the stabilizer, rudder, and aileron trims are set for takeoff.
4. Ensure the takeoff speeds are displayed on the PFD or MFD."

They both basically cover the same things, but the verbage and order are distinctively different. I was getting it both ways at FSI. Good catch Ski!

Not required on ferry flights. I personally wear it because I can't hear crap. There is an altitude requirement that I would have to look it up. Again its a technique thing. Just because its not required doesn't mean you don't have to wear a headset on the pax legs and not on the ferry legs. Its just to give you the option that if you want you don't have to wear it. Prevents pilots from flying with the speaker on and pax in the back.

Again, not meaning to be a nerd but.........

CE-750 SOP, Page B-11, subparagraph B6.2, dated March 1, 2006 states:

"Headsets are provided on the aircraft for each crewmember. Headsets shall be worn by both crewmembers at all times with passengers aboard, and at all times below FL 180."

Sitting on my keister for 6 months has given me ample time to peruse the SOP, and every other related document ever written by NJA.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Good post Archie.....

Kind of makes my point....items like you mentioned should be brought up to ACP's, CP and training people for clarification., We had a real fiasco in the XL over the first rendition of our SOP's. That was alot of questions brought up by crew members on the road that were finally addressed.

My problem with people not following the SOP's is not so much over exact wording....but rather, over actually using them or not using them becasue that particular individual didn't like them or refused to put away their old habits. That's where the safety issue comes into play.

 

[Diesel]

Like i said my FOM is somewhere but not here.

"Headsets are provided on the aircraft for each crewmember. Headsets shall be worn by both crewmembers at all times with passengers aboard, and at all times below FL 180."

Do you have pax on board on ferry flights?

As to the speedbrakes/spoilers example i've got to dig into more to give you your answer. Its kind of tough with no sop's and fom but i'll see what i can do.

 

[skiandsurf]

Diesel and Do, thanks for the discussion. I have always told my FOs, "I try and do things by the book, but if you see something wrong or question, just tell me because I am probably unaware of it".

Archie, thanks for having your book out and available.