NetJets and FlightSafety report profits for 2004

[VmaxFlyR]

Details, details...

As dispatcherNJA noted in another thread, the 23%-40% figures was posted on these boards by one of your fellow pilots, and no one even commented on it.

Funny how when a pilot says the numbers everyone accepts them, but the minute anyone else that is perceived as pro-company states those exact same numbers then it is pure heresy.

Not sure about heresy, but how about a little of accuracy?

1) I lost that post from a "fellow pilot" regarding the 23%-40% raises so I can't post a link, but what you DON'T include in your recollection of that post is that the 40% raises are connected to a 6-6 schedule, which is about 7% more duty days that a current 17 day schedule...If one works more they SHOULD be paid more, no?

Suddenly that 40% becomes 33% comparing "apples-to-apples."

2) Combined that with a discussion of REAL Dollars:

QUOTE=FamilyGuy]My understanding is that the current proposal has raises ranging from 23% to 40%, depending on seniority and position, with the larger number going to the new hires. If 23% is the minimum raise, then I think that meets the definition of 'sizable'.

I won't get into an exchange with you as to whether the 23-40% raise figure is really accurate, but I can be confident that the cost of living ALONE has eaten up just over 18% of any additional money since 1998...

http://www.aier.org/cgi-aier/colcalculator.cgi

So what you're really talking about, if your figures are accurate, are 5-22% raises in real (2005) dollars.

Question:
Are the proposed raises indexed? Nope? Then that guy who will be a 5 year Captain 3 years from now will be looking at probably a -3% (decrease) to a +14% (increase) in Real Wages in 2008...

Is that same guy going to have to work more days for that raise? How about working any more hours in a day?

What about the status of his benefit package?


The devil is often in the details--could be a reason the netjets pilots aren't too excited about that latest proposal!

3) What you end up with is a possible -10% (decrease) in Real Wages (Standard of Living) to a potential, for New Hires, of a +7% (increase) in the standard of living...

Can you see why existing Netjet guys may not have been too excited about that proposal?

What about the other details?

This may come down to how one is defining the word "raise."

Is an increase in dollars paid considered a "raise" simply because it's more that what was previously paid, irregardless of inflation and additional time put into the earning of those additional dollars,
OR
Is a "raise" a sufficient amount of new dollars paid to actually increase one's Standard of Living, which would take into effect inflation and any addional time on the job and away from home, family, friends, etc?

I suspect that FamilyGuy and Dispatcher would claim the former, while what I've been reading would support that most Netjets pilots would support the latter--getting some figure bringing up their Standard of Living, closer to what NBAA guys get/live.

 

[Hogprint]

Hmm.. seems like you stated a fact and then shot it down all in one post. Smart.

Yeah, it's like my ol' grandma used to say....

You tell one lie, you got to tell five more to cover up the first.

 

[pilotyip]

Brotherhood?

Ah! "brother and sisters" the standard battle cry of the solidarity. Having been a member of the bortherhood a couple times, there is no brotherhood or sisterhood when the place folds (not saying NJ will fold) and you are on the street, no job placement, no training funds, no nothing except dues out of your last check. An example of the brother hood, under the de-reg act of 1978, if an airline failed the jobs would flow with the airframe, i.e. EAL goes out of business and XYZ picks up a 757, the EAL pilots should go to XYZ. Except the brothers at XYZ said "No way, I got mine, that is your problem". So much for the brotherhood, only relating my experiences.

 

[hydrarkt]

Then why don't we all just work for free???

 

[pilotyip]

Free?

That is against the law I think, you have to paid at least $5.75/hr

 

[El Chupacabra]

No doubt they make a boatload of money. I wish them well but it is of little concern to me.

Profits are not where the pilot's salaries come from. Pilot salaries come from the management fees. If there is not enough money to pay pilots ... then the management fees being charged are not correct. Or there is MISmanagement

There are twice as many shareowners as pilots. Surely someone who pays $2.5 million for 1/8 of a Jet can afford to pay one half of one pilot's salary.

 

[Diesel]

profit or no profit who cares. X amount is what the pilots cost. We fly the planes it's their job to figure out how to pay us.

I see my raise go out the window in waste every day.

Pay us or close the doors.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Not sure about heresy, but how about a little of accuracy?

1) I lost that post from a "fellow pilot" regarding the 23%-40% raises so I can't post a link, but what you DON'T include in your recollection of that post is that the 40% raises are connected to a 6-6 schedule, which is about 7% more duty days that a current 17 day schedule...If one works more they SHOULD be paid more, no?

Suddenly that 40% becomes 33% comparing "apples-to-apples."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt 50% of the current schedules 7-7, which works out to the same number of work days as the proposed schedule of 6-6?

I won't get into an exchange with you as to whether the 23-40% raise figure is really accurate, but I can be confident that the cost of living ALONE has eaten up just over 18% of any additional money since 1998...

http://www.aier.org/cgi-aier/colcalculator.cgi

So what you're really talking about, if your figures are accurate, are 5-22% raises in real (2005) dollars.

Question:
Are the proposed raises indexed? Nope? Then that guy who will be a 5 year Captain 3 years from now will be looking at probably a -3% (decrease) to a +14% (increase) in Real Wages in 2008...

Is that same guy going to have to work more days for that raise? How about working any more hours in a day?

What about the status of his benefit package?


The devil is often in the details--could be a reason the netjets pilots aren't too excited about that latest proposal!

3) What you end up with is a possible -10% (decrease) in Real Wages (Standard of Living) to a potential, for New Hires, of a +7% (increase) in the standard of living...

Can you see why existing Netjet guys may not have been too excited about that proposal?

What about the other details?

This may come down to how one is defining the word "raise."

Is an increase in dollars paid considered a "raise" simply because it's more that what was previously paid, irregardless of inflation and additional time put into the earning of those additional dollars,
OR
Is a "raise" a sufficient amount of new dollars paid to actually increase one's Standard of Living, which would take into effect inflation and any addional time on the job and away from home, family, friends, etc?

I suspect that FamilyGuy and Dispatcher would claim the former, while what I've been reading would support that most Netjets pilots would support the latter--getting some figure bringing up their Standard of Living, closer to what NBAA guys get/live.

In terms of "real dollars", does the current proposal raise the NetJets pilots above the other fractionals? Since I dont have the full proposals at my disposal, I'll turn it over to you....

Here are the current 5 year captain wages for the fractionals from airlinepilotpay.com. Does the current proposal vault you to the industry leader position?

NetJets...............60,984
CitationShares..... 63,996
FlightOptions....... 66,372
FlexJet............... 70,737

If I assume the minimum 23% raise then that would yield a wage of over $75,000. Doesnt that fit the criteria you guys are asking for in your picket sign language that you feature on your website:

NetJets Pilots seek Livable wage
NetJets Pilots The industrys safest pilots deserve a livable wage
NetJets Pilots deserve an industry leading contract. Now!

 

[Diesel]

70k isn't a liveable wage for what we do on a daily basis.

Maybe for CMH you can do it but not in New England.

 

[El Chupacabra]

No Captain Left Behind

100K min pay for Captains. Right off the bat. Why wait 5 yrs to get what you deserve now?

Hopefully this is what our team is asking for.

 

[FAcFriend]

Maybe for CMH you can do it but not in New England.

I am from New England. It is so expensive to live there...anywhere there.

 

[JetProp]

How much do you get paid to post messages FamilyGuy?
-been-there

LOL....this is so hilarious and predictable....

every day on this board we are told that line pilots are infallible (yes, we now have to differentiate since NetJets President is also a pilot) and know how to do everything. They are more than happy to tell you how to do your job.

but, the minute someone posts FACTS on this board the union supporters, who evidently can't refute or even argue the facts, will respond in one of two ways:

1 - state that they dont care if the company is making money...they deserve X amount. If the company cant pay it then it shouldnt be in business

or

2 - revert back to their high school days and start calling people names as a way to divert attention from the discussion at hand.

If you guys are so freakin smart then all of the FACTS and arguments being posted by us lowly flight center employees should be easily dispelled by your vastly superior logic.

You should have no reason to resort to sophmoric insults if your arguments are sound and supported by fact....... but then maybe that's what the problem is....your position and demands aren't based in fact and reality.

You didn't answer the question. Levitt used to bill $1000.00/day.

 

[RustyFan]

I see my raise go out the window in waste every day.

Jump out the window after it.

Try FL410, it'll give you time to think how your going to spend your raise.............. bud!

 

[FamilyGuy]

How much do you get paid to post messages FamilyGuy?
-been-there


You didn't answer the question. Levitt used to bill $1000.00/day.

I wish I did get paid to post here....I could use the extra income.

If anyone is going to pay me for posting here it should be your union. Where else can you go to get free constructive criticism on the fallacies in your arguments?

All the free advice I've given you on the holes and mistakes in your positions has to be worth a good sum. I just hope you're learning from all the free lessons you're getting here.

 

[Some Dude]

Family Guy are we getting to you? Why are so scared to tell us your real job? You don't have the guts to even tell us what you do. So, why would we even begin to listen to you?