NetJets and FlightSafety report profits for 2004

[El Chupacabra]

No doubt they make a boatload of money. I wish them well but it is of little concern to me.

Profits are not where the pilot's salaries come from. Pilot salaries come from the management fees. If there is not enough money to pay pilots ... then the management fees being charged are not correct. Or there is MISmanagement

There are twice as many shareowners as pilots. Surely someone who pays $2.5 million for 1/8 of a Jet can afford to pay one half of one pilot's salary.

 

[Diesel]

profit or no profit who cares. X amount is what the pilots cost. We fly the planes it's their job to figure out how to pay us.

I see my raise go out the window in waste every day.

Pay us or close the doors.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Not sure about heresy, but how about a little of accuracy?

1) I lost that post from a "fellow pilot" regarding the 23%-40% raises so I can't post a link, but what you DON'T include in your recollection of that post is that the 40% raises are connected to a 6-6 schedule, which is about 7% more duty days that a current 17 day schedule...If one works more they SHOULD be paid more, no?

Suddenly that 40% becomes 33% comparing "apples-to-apples."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt 50% of the current schedules 7-7, which works out to the same number of work days as the proposed schedule of 6-6?

I won't get into an exchange with you as to whether the 23-40% raise figure is really accurate, but I can be confident that the cost of living ALONE has eaten up just over 18% of any additional money since 1998...

http://www.aier.org/cgi-aier/colcalculator.cgi

So what you're really talking about, if your figures are accurate, are 5-22% raises in real (2005) dollars.

Question:
Are the proposed raises indexed? Nope? Then that guy who will be a 5 year Captain 3 years from now will be looking at probably a -3% (decrease) to a +14% (increase) in Real Wages in 2008...

Is that same guy going to have to work more days for that raise? How about working any more hours in a day?

What about the status of his benefit package?


The devil is often in the details--could be a reason the netjets pilots aren't too excited about that latest proposal!

3) What you end up with is a possible -10% (decrease) in Real Wages (Standard of Living) to a potential, for New Hires, of a +7% (increase) in the standard of living...

Can you see why existing Netjet guys may not have been too excited about that proposal?

What about the other details?

This may come down to how one is defining the word "raise."

Is an increase in dollars paid considered a "raise" simply because it's more that what was previously paid, irregardless of inflation and additional time put into the earning of those additional dollars,
OR
Is a "raise" a sufficient amount of new dollars paid to actually increase one's Standard of Living, which would take into effect inflation and any addional time on the job and away from home, family, friends, etc?

I suspect that FamilyGuy and Dispatcher would claim the former, while what I've been reading would support that most Netjets pilots would support the latter--getting some figure bringing up their Standard of Living, closer to what NBAA guys get/live.

In terms of "real dollars", does the current proposal raise the NetJets pilots above the other fractionals? Since I dont have the full proposals at my disposal, I'll turn it over to you....

Here are the current 5 year captain wages for the fractionals from airlinepilotpay.com. Does the current proposal vault you to the industry leader position?

NetJets...............60,984
CitationShares..... 63,996
FlightOptions....... 66,372
FlexJet............... 70,737

If I assume the minimum 23% raise then that would yield a wage of over $75,000. Doesnt that fit the criteria you guys are asking for in your picket sign language that you feature on your website:

NetJets Pilots seek Livable wage
NetJets Pilots The industrys safest pilots deserve a livable wage
NetJets Pilots deserve an industry leading contract. Now!

 

[Diesel]

70k isn't a liveable wage for what we do on a daily basis.

Maybe for CMH you can do it but not in New England.

 

[El Chupacabra]

No Captain Left Behind

100K min pay for Captains. Right off the bat. Why wait 5 yrs to get what you deserve now?

Hopefully this is what our team is asking for.

 

[FAcFriend]

Maybe for CMH you can do it but not in New England.

I am from New England. It is so expensive to live there...anywhere there.

 

[JetProp]

How much do you get paid to post messages FamilyGuy?
-been-there

LOL....this is so hilarious and predictable....

every day on this board we are told that line pilots are infallible (yes, we now have to differentiate since NetJets President is also a pilot) and know how to do everything. They are more than happy to tell you how to do your job.

but, the minute someone posts FACTS on this board the union supporters, who evidently can't refute or even argue the facts, will respond in one of two ways:

1 - state that they dont care if the company is making money...they deserve X amount. If the company cant pay it then it shouldnt be in business

or

2 - revert back to their high school days and start calling people names as a way to divert attention from the discussion at hand.

If you guys are so freakin smart then all of the FACTS and arguments being posted by us lowly flight center employees should be easily dispelled by your vastly superior logic.

You should have no reason to resort to sophmoric insults if your arguments are sound and supported by fact....... but then maybe that's what the problem is....your position and demands aren't based in fact and reality.

You didn't answer the question. Levitt used to bill $1000.00/day.

 

[RustyFan]

I see my raise go out the window in waste every day.

Jump out the window after it.

Try FL410, it'll give you time to think how your going to spend your raise.............. bud!

 

[FamilyGuy]

How much do you get paid to post messages FamilyGuy?
-been-there


You didn't answer the question. Levitt used to bill $1000.00/day.

I wish I did get paid to post here....I could use the extra income.

If anyone is going to pay me for posting here it should be your union. Where else can you go to get free constructive criticism on the fallacies in your arguments?

All the free advice I've given you on the holes and mistakes in your positions has to be worth a good sum. I just hope you're learning from all the free lessons you're getting here.

 

[Some Dude]

Family Guy are we getting to you? Why are so scared to tell us your real job? You don't have the guts to even tell us what you do. So, why would we even begin to listen to you?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy are we getting to you? Why are so scared to tell us your real job? You don't have the guts to even tell us what you do. So, why would we even begin to listen to you?

LOL....actually, I think I'm getting to you.....why else would you devote so much time with the personal attacks?

Start dealing in facts and ideas and maybe you'll have more success....I'm still waiting for an intelligent response from you to the many questions I've posed....

 

[Some Dude]

If you don't tell us what you do then how can we respect your opinions? You have no facts just union busting 101 crap. Smell ya later.

 

[Diesel]

Rustyfan what in the world does that mean? I guess it was a dig of some sort but who knows.

 

[pilotyip]

Again this is a pilot board, it does not deal in reality.

 

[FAcFriend]

profit or no profit who cares. X amount is what the pilots cost. We fly the planes it's their job to figure out how to pay us.- diesel


There is validity to this argument and I know the casino guys dont want to hear it. But if customers dont want to afford to pay the fees associated with paying pilots and the pilots don't want to fly for the wages they get, then fractional as a business does not work.

I have said this before on this board and everyone laughed. Perhaps too many customers who are mariginally wealthy are trying to fly fractional - these people cant really afford it and the industry has to be reserved for the ultra rich. They need to go back to flying commercial.

Less marginally wealthy customers = Less pilots=more pay per pilot..
less support staff, and so on.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Hey I agree with this. But lets focus on one thing. Management Fees. Thats where pilot salaries come from. Looking at all the books is a waste of time.

When you have an airplane there are fixed costs.... one of those costs is the salaries of the crew.... This cost exists regardless of the financial performance of the company. If you want to crew 5 pilots per airplane... make sure the management fees adequately cover this cost. Simple.

 

[Hogprint]

I agree with the above two posts. If you have to ask, you can't afford.

What started out as a little plan for Mr. S to get some of his less wealthy friends down to FLA, now has turned into an 800 lb gorilla. Now that the genie is out of the bottle he can't contain him, much less reel him in.

The little shell game never accounted for the time/wear & tear and lower value that the big M brought to the table. Now the owners are getting concerned that there will be no return on their investment like the Wunder of Woodbridge had promised.

Instead of reselling planes, now we have to keep buying into new airframes so we can still claim we have the most modern up to date fleet. Not the 10k pigs we are seeing out on the road.

I have long thought we should limit the discount side of the aisle here. At least have a dedicated fleet for marquis.

 

[FAcFriend]

Less marginally wealthy customers = Less pilots=more pay per pilot..
less support staff, and so on.

Ok, so now that we agree that the pilots are correct and there is a flaw in the basic business plan-

We will have too many pilots and too many employees. I am not willing to resign because this business plan is too tight. You know how the saying goes- easier to get a job while you have a job-

The union will get much smaller- will it even be needed?
Droves of pilots are now out looking for jobs?

Lets see how many resign in the coming weeks- 5% turnover rate is nothing - until we are seeing 25% turnover rates noone will get excited.

 

[FamilyGuy]

I agree with the above two posts. If you have to ask, you can't afford.

What started out as a little plan for Mr. S to get some of his less wealthy friends down to FLA, now has turned into an 800 lb gorilla. Now that the genie is out of the bottle he can't contain him, much less reel him in.

The little shell game never accounted for the time/wear & tear and lower value that the big M brought to the table. Now the owners are getting concerned that there will be no return on their investment like the Wunder of Woodbridge had promised.

Instead of reselling planes, now we have to keep buying into new airframes so we can still claim we have the most modern up to date fleet. Not the 10k pigs we are seeing out on the road.

I have long thought we should limit the discount side of the aisle here. At least have a dedicated fleet for marquis.

IMO, NetJets is a luxury product and as such its potential market size is inherently limited. There is merit to FAcFriend's idea that the marginally wealthy segment may not be able to afford or justify the increased salaries that the pilots are seeking. If this is the case, then it will simply curb the growth of the program, thereby limiting it to the truely rich.

I dont think this indicates that there is a basic flaw in the business plan, just that it is limited in size. Dont forget that fractional has been around for 20 years now....it is a viable business model, it just may not be scalable to 10,000+ people.

As for Marquis, hours are still hours. They buy 25 hours at a time and use it the same as regular owners....there is no additional wear and tear than a regular owner's 25 hours. Where I think Marquis does cause problems is that they add to the pre-existing peaks and increase the likelyhood of demand exceeding supply.

As we all know, everyone and their brother wants to fly on the sunday after thanksgiving....If you sell a full share, then that owner is going to spread out his flying over the entire year, if you sell a half share then that owner has 400 hours to spread out over the year, but odds are that he will also want to fly on the same peak holiday periods as the full share owner...same as the 1/8th owner and the 1/16th owner....and same as the 1/32nd (marquis) owner....this is where we have problems... the new restrictions on marquis that were recently announced hopefully will help control that demand.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

profit or no profit who cares. X amount is what the pilots cost. We fly the planes it's their job to figure out how to pay us.

I see my raise go out the window in waste every day.

Pay us or close the doors.

Diesel, You're right on with this one.

It costs X amount to buy fuel for the planes, so they pay it. It costs X amount to run your maintenance department, so they pay it. Catering, taxes, ramp fees, etc. They pay them. They have to pay everything it takes to make the birds fly. Now, they're a business, so they'll negotiate the best price they can on everything. Even pilots. Good luck!

Now, just as a little joke, I must point out that none of us in the 91 world have to deal with this stuff. We have no union so if we want more money, we just ask (and we usually get it, sometimes not, but there's always another gig waiting around the corner if you play your cards right).

Ace