Net Vs Flex

[Majik]

With your new CBA you've made furloughs possible for yourselves if there is a down-tick in the economy or a further increase in NetJets' losses. You've become expensive help and a sizeable portion of NetJets' operating costs.

Let's see, NetJets owns some buildings and maybe a few core aircraft. I'm shocked that you think it strange that labor is a sizable portion of NetJet's operating costs. Are you sure you don't want another chance to re-think that statement? I guess by your logic we should have fought for a pay cut instead of a raise. Glad you ain't managing anything I have an interest in.

Even though the CBA is signed, that anti-company attitude seems to prevail among a lot of your pilots.

Yeah it does seem, after management's 4 years of delay tactics, although legal, that many of the pilots didn't instantly forgive and forget. Who-da-thunk???
Especially since management seems to be a little slow on complying with some of their promises in the current contract. Maybe that was bad strategy on management's part. Maybe negotiations will go better next time. Maybe they won't. I think we left a lot of money on the table but, since I like the job and the money's much better than it was, I'll stay where I am and keep doing what I'm paid to do. I'm complying with every word and paragraph of the CBA. I just wish the company wouldn't make me file a grievance every time I want to get them to live up to their end. Probably one of those things you would never understand unless you were in our shoes.

 

[gunfyter]

Expensive help

You have think before you type.


An $80 million loss for 2005.


Thats 2/3 of the amount of the entire pilot payroll.

So if we cut the payroll for pilots from $120 million to $40 Million we could break even!

So instead of a Year 7 Citation X captain earning $67K, I should have earned only $22K?

Is that your solution GEX?

 

[ultrarunner]

You have think before you type.


An $80 million loss for 2005.

How long do you expect Warren to stay in the business if losses of that magnitude continue?

 

[gunfyter]

How long do you expect Warren to stay in the business if losses of that magnitude continue?

How long do you expect him to stay in business paying $22K for Jet Captains?

My point was to show the losses have nothing to do with pilot salaries.

Actually they do. the salaries were too low. I predict a massive improvement in profits now that pilot salaries have improved.

Don't you realize the reason we have a new CBA is they could not sustain further losses and decided they wanted to make money instead?

The old CBA was too inefficient for the company. In the last 2 months prior to the TA being reached... I had only 2 hours of flight time. In the first 2 months of this year on the new CBA I have 150 hrs. The increases in efficiency of the new CBA over the last are spectacular!

If I had some money... i'd be buying NJA stock right now.

 

[Majik]

How long do you expect Warren to stay in the business if losses of that magnitude continue?

I predict Berkshire Hathaway will close its doors if NJA loses another $80 million, lol...

My wife charges me $300/day to park in our garage. She charges me $150 for every beer I get out of our refrigerator. My personal balance sheet looks pretty dismal but hers is great. So far the overall (household) balance sheets look about the same.

 

[BrnJetFuel]

Sounds like an honest question to me.

If he really has to ask, I'd say go to Flex! Prefer to have someone of you're intelligence working for our competition.

 

[Ultra Grump]

My wife charges me $300/day to park in our garage. She charges me $150 for every beer I get out of our refrigerator. My personal balance sheet looks pretty dismal but hers is great. So far the overall (household) balance sheets look about the same.

LOL! Good analogy!

 

[GEXDriver]

You have think before you type.

An $80 million loss for 2005.

I think before I type. What I think is that revenue, EBITA, and loses for business is like oxygen for you - if you lack just one percent of what you need you still die.

Unions in their current formulation are an anti - productive force ill-suited to commerce in the global economy of the 21st century.

The typical union mantra of, " How can we do less, with more people for more pay" is killing companies accross America.

Your group is not the first bunch of pilots to demand more money from companies that were losing money - Eastern, Braniff, PanAm, Delta, Northwest and United come immediately to mind - leaving the companies with the Hobbesian Choice of dying now or dying later.

 

[Abbey]

NW contract was in 1998, way before the "big loss" days. Since 2001, I believe the average NW pilot is working for about 25-40 percent less than that contract says. And guess what.....they are still losing money and are now broke. Maybe NW has more problems than just the greedy pilots?

 

[G100driver]

Your group is not the first bunch of pilots to demand more money from companies that were losing money - Eastern, Braniff, PanAm, Delta, Northwest and United come immediately to mind - leaving the companies with the Hobbesian Choice of dying now or dying later.

Nice choice of words though I think most people think that you are talking about a stuffed Tiger

However, both United and Delta were making money hand over fist when the pay raises were asked for and implemented. These groups did not "give back" in the same fashion that the companies did not "give out" during the good times.

Not making excuses for poor union leadership, but let's get real. Until companies are going to start be responsible with the SHAREHOLDERS money (no more golden parchutes for incompetance or excessive salaries for a few select employee's) unions will continue to see justification for their actions.

 

[gunfyter]

Over 90% of the revenue increase in 2004 over 2003 resulted from theNetJets business where flight operations revenue increased just under $400 million and revenues from aircraft sales increasedabout $360 million.Revenues INCREASED $750 MILLION!!!! In ONE YEAR! HOLY CRAP.If thats the increase I wonder what the total revenue was. And before the new CBA their pilot payroll was only $120 million.

 

[hammer2]

Buffet= 30+ billion and growing. NJA will be around for many years. The rest of the numbers just don't matter.
Flex has to depend on bombardiers product to be profitable. Plus a little undercutting.

 

[Pickle]

So it would seem that the consensus is Net is better than Flex, is that what I'm hearing here??

I'm looking at both.

 

[gunfyter]

Oh I think the numbers do matter.

Blaming an 80 million dollar loss on union pilot salaries that totaled 120 million for 2000 pilots.... 60K each... is ... well preposterous.

To eliminate 80 M in losses from pilot salaries would require ave salary to be $20K per pilot.

 

[EGLFO4LIFE]

Well, the decision has been made. It's NJ in the Citation X on the 20th of this month. Looking forward to it.

 

[On Your Six]

Well, the decision has been made. It's NJ in the Citation X on the 20th of this month. Looking forward to it.

Good job. Were you offered other types as well? Enjoy the bat wing!

 

[Freight Jock]

So then the next question should be: How well is Bombardier itself doing?

According to my former co-workers in sales, it seems they are doing well. But, well in this case is relative. You can access the financials on their website.

 

[hammer2]

Oh I think the numbers do matter.

Blaming an 80 million dollar loss on union pilot salaries that totaled 120 million for 2000 pilots.... 60K each... is ... well preposterous.

To eliminate 80 M in losses from pilot salaries would require ave salary to be $20K per pilot.

Numbers matter to point, everybody wants that profit. I think if nja has a loss its not going to hurt as much as it would at flex if they had a sizable loss.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Gunfyter,

Sorry but, stick to flying and leave "business" to the business men. You are telling us nothing here. The math and numbers you quote are not that simple in real business. There are too many variables for you to be putting numbers out there like you know what you're talking about. You're no genius.

 

[gunfyter]

Actually I am.