Need help! (Long post)

[nubi78]

All, pardon my lack of research but I am in an unusual position. I had basically decided to not pursue a career in aviation after a downturn in the market a few years ago. Just a few days ago I was approached by a family friend/business owner that wants to buy a Citation Jet and wants me to fly it. So, I picked myself up off of the floor and decided to write *YOU* for advice.

My current experience is Commercial ASEL with my CFI-A. I have 300 hours and have not flown in about two years. I have a current medical but am not current as far as a flight review goes. I do not have any dual given since getting my CFI-A certificate.

Yes, it does not make sense that he would want me to fly for him with such low time but I believe that he knows me, my personal character and my work ethic (along with job skills outside of flying).. Regardless, I am putting a package together to present to him that contains a time line and dollar figure to get me up to speed.

Tell me what you think:

Step 1, get in an airplane and fly. I figured 10 to 15 hours in a Cessna 152 or 172. With this time I will get current on general VFR procedures and get my IFR skills up to speed. Do you think 10-15 is enough time? Also, if I feel good about my IFR skills, I may go ahead and pick up my CFI-I certificate but would probably tack on another 5 hours for that.

Step 2. Get my Multi-Engine Commercial. I would be willing to travel to ATP or something similar. I have no experience flying twins and as far as I know, the cost for the rating should be about $6000 and should take one to two weeks. With that, I will have roughly 10-15 hours in a multi-engine airplane.

Step 3. (This is where I get lost...) I need to proceed from being freshly certified to fly multi-engine aircraft to flying a Citation Jet. I believe I will need a type rating for the Citation 1 if that is what this gentlemen decides to purchase. From what I understand a type rating is intense and unbelievably stressful. It seems to me that there should be some intermediate training that can be taken between getting my multi and flying Citation jets.

Step 4. Worry about insurance. I was told by a fellow pilot that my biggest obstacle is flying as a Citation Jet FO is getting insured. Is it possible and is the cost so extreme that the business owner may determine that insuring me is just too expensive?

I would never have guessed that an opportunity like this would be possible, but since it is, I am going to take the shot of a lifetime!

One final question. If this business owner decides to purchase a jet that is certified for single pilot operations does that mean that if I flew as an FO I would not be able to log the time? Or in other words, do I need to worry about flying as FO in a single pilot certified airplane?

Forgive my ignorance, but if I logged 300-600 hours of FO twin turbine time, how marketable would I be after that for other corporate/regional gigs? Or, is captain time what really counts?

I humbly appreciate your advice!

 

[Say Again Over]

2 cents worth

Well I am not an expert in the training field (or anything else) but I would first have to say that it is very doable, if your family friend is serious, you have a great opportunity, now how to go about this, first of all I would find out why he is selecting a Citation, my idea is, first, get professional help in choosing and procuring an airplane, you need an expert, you can lose several hundred-thousand dollars if you are not an expert on this type of equipment, a full prepurchase inspection at an independent facility is minimum. So, get help in choosing the right airplane for the job, and get help buying it.

So let's say you get a CJ1, now you go to the factory school and get your type rating, you will probably get to act as PIC after 500 hours on type (just a guess).

For your last question it really depends on the type equipment the corporate operation uses, with several hundred hours on the jet, I'd say you'd be in great shape.

SAO

 

[nubi78]

Hi SAO, This owner has been going over details for several years now. I am not 100% certain why he has his sights on the airplane he does, but when talking to him, it sounds like he has thought this through considerably.

He said he has an airplane brooker looking for him but I am not sure what exactly airplane brokers do besides look for airplanes.

Thanks for your input!

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

I don't think you will have any problems with the Citation. If you think you need to go to TEB (and others like it) I would recommend taking a contract pilot with you.

Just remember, every airplane is the same. You have:

Source (hydraulic, electrical, fuel, pneumatic, etc.)
Distribution (wires, hoses, lines, mechanical linkage)
Controls (switches, knobs, levers)
Monitoring (guages)

Good Luck!

 

[pilotpat]

I agree that insurance would probably be one of the bigger hurdles, but everything is insurable for a price. The other hurdle I see is the getting typed on a jet without an ATP or 1000 hours TT. I don't recall the exact FAR, and my book is not with me on the road today, so I apologize for that. However, I do know that if the aircraft is certified single pilot, SIC time cannot be logged. I know only because I was going to fly a corporate gig as FO in a Citation and was told by the CP that unfortunately I couldn't log it until I became PIC or typed and allowed to fly a leg. If you're typed in the aircraft and the PIC is a current CFI he could call it instruction. The main question is: Would the PIC be legal under the FAR's to make a flight if you got sick and didn't show up? If the answer is yes, then you cannot log SIC time.

 

[LJ45]

Hire an experienced pilot for a year or two until you get the necessary skills to fly PIC in a jet. You are not current, have no real PIC time and no turbine time.

 

[G100driver]

Hire an experienced pilot for a year or two until you get the necessary skills to fly PIC in a jet. You are not current, have no really PIC time and no turbine time.

This is the only answer that is even close to being correct.

Get out their and fly.

Do your friend a favor. Suggest a contract PIC to put on retainer who will baby sit you for the 1st year. Hire different guy to fly with you for the 2nd year. If both of them can agree that you will not get the owner killed, then ask one of those guys to come to work for you full time as a co-captain.

Let's not even debate the silliness of single pilot with your expirence. I am not saying that you do not have stick and rudder skills, but what you do not have is the expirence to "smell" something that is not right. This 6th sence only comes with expirence.

Hoping into a jet just because it is "easy" does not make it right. Your friend just paid $$$$$$$$$ money for a jet and gave you the ultimate compliment. Now go out there and do the right thing, tell him to get professional help in the cockpit. Take this a learining expirence. At the end of the day, your friend will thank you and appreciate your professionalism.

 

[nfg2u]

This is the only answer that is even close to being correct.

Get out their and fly.

Do your friend a favor. Suggest a contract PIC to put on retainer who will baby sit you for the 1st year. Hire different guy to fly with you for the 2nd year. If both of them can agree that you will not get the owner killed, then ask one of those guys to come to work for you full time as a co-captain.

I agree 110%!

Also - Watch your back when around the broker as well. He is not looking out for your best interest! He is looking out for his wallet! He will tell your Boss whatever he has too to get the sale! BEWARE!!! Treat him like a lawyer that isn't on your side!

I hope it works out for you! Its a dream we have all had at one time or another.

 

[CelticCitation]

Insurance is Priority #1

Don't spend 1 penny (yours or your bosses) until you have an agreement with the insurance company. I have seen many pilots a lot more qualified than you are right now get axed because they put insurance so far down the list. Fact of the matter is an insurance company probably won't touch you for several hundred to a thousand hours, and in the meantime you have put a lot of your time and effort, and someones money into it without a guaranteed result.

The last guy I gave this advise to didn't believe me, and wanted the job. He now works at a credit card call center, his boss found a new pilot who already had training, time in type, etc. He burned the bridge to the ground, then dozed in the supports by not talking to insurance first.

And it is not true that you can buy really expensive insurance to cover you at your time. In 1200 hours you can buy really expensive insurance to cover you because of your low time.

CC

 

[Waldom]

From what I read, an insurance company will require you to fly with a mentor pilot for some specified period of flight hours. That time period would be determined by your training provider [ie.: Flight Safety] and the insurance company. Yes, the premium will be high and the coverage low, but I understand that it is doable.

As I understand the program, you would be the P.I.C. while flying during this period. The mentor pilot would be acting as an instructor, but as long as you are type rated on the aircraft, you would be the P.I.C.

As other posters have said, working all this out with the insurance company and the training provider should be done prior to searching for an airplane.
_________________________________________________________________

I think your idea of gaining instrument proficiency in a light airplane prior to your initial training on the CJ is a sound one. I would not use basic airplanes for this, however. I believe a high-performance single would better prepare you.

The choice of instructor for this is a critical decision. For what you are doing, an instructor with a great deal of I.F.R. experience in turboprops or jets [lots of practical and current experience outside the training environment] is required. If you have to travel across the country and stay there for two weeks to find this combination, do it. If you think about it, the cost of doing it this way instead of with a brand new C.F.I.I. in a Cessna 172 is infinitesimal compared to the total cost of this venture. It has the added benefit of increasing your confidence before heading off to type training.

Before getting the multi-engine rating in a piston twin, talk to the CJ training provider. It may be more efficient to simply get the multi-engine rating along with your type-rating checkride. Everything you need to learn about handling single-engine emergencies is taught in the standard course anyway and an engine failure in a CJ is much easier to deal with than in any piston twin. I could be off the mark on this one, though. A multi-engine rating may be an enrollment requirement. Ask them.

I think that your getting a C.F.I.I. rating yourself during all this is a distraction that you don't need. I can't see any benefit there for you or your boss. I'm not saying that experience as a C.F.I.I. isn't a good thing, but just getting the rating serves no purpose at this point. You need practical weather flying experience flying cross-country in an actual I.F.R. environment.

Regarding the training for the CJ, don't overstress. Yes, the training is concentrated and sometimes intense. This is because the training providers have been forced by the market to jam as much as they can into the shortest possible time for monetary and scheduling reasons. Keep in mind that with an airplane like the CJ, the training providers are used to dealing with customers that do not have a great deal of experience and are not "professional pilots".

Go there well prepared by having studied your course material, and with the attitude that you are going to work hard and perform to the best of your ability. Know that you will have some "bad days" in the simulator and there will be times when you don't think you are going to be able to pass [this usually occures not too long before the checkride]. Your instructors are there to get you through the program. Most of them will come across as your partner, not your adversary. "Professional pilots" fail checkrides sometimes. When they do, they retrain to proficiency and try it again. This enterprise is not a cake-walk, but you don't have to be Steve Canyon to complete it successfully. Take it seriously, study hard, show up humble but not all worked up and you will do well.

 

[blzr]

Congrats!! you have been given a big challenge (opportunity). Flying the Citation is alot of fun and is a pilots airplane. One thing to consider, flying is just a small part of being a pilot. What if your boss wants to go to Vermont in January, you will have to deal with icing. Not a problem once you get the hang of it, but de-icing is another matter if you are not familiar with it. High density airports is also a big factor. Flying into TEB can be a challenge for a 10K hour pilot that has been there several times.

Your flying skills are probably fine, but don't get in over your head. It is a big responsibility to fly the boss around, not only is he/she depending on you, so are all the other employees and his/her family.

It's not so much the flying that is going to hold you back, it's the decision making that comes from experience. Heck, we are all student pilots in some degree or another regardless if you have 20 hours, 200 hours or 20000 hours.

Get out there and fly, get current, and enjoy the ride. I know you will have a blast!

 

[gutshotdraw]

I don't think you will have any problems with the Citation. If you think you need to go to TEB (and others like it) I would recommend taking a contract pilot with you.

Just remember, every airplane is the same. You have:

Source (hydraulic, electrical, fuel, pneumatic, etc.)
Distribution (wires, hoses, lines, mechanical linkage)
Controls (switches, knobs, levers)
Monitoring (guages)

Good Luck!

You must have gone to Simuflite. But you forgot one:

Source
Distribution
Control
Monitor
Protect (Fire Warning, Crew Alerting, Master Caution, etc.)

Good luck, Nubi!

 

[Say Again Over]

Lots of great info from the other posters, let us know how it goes, good luck!

SAO

 

[ekuflyer]

I agree that insurance would probably be one of the bigger hurdles, but everything is insurable for a price. The other hurdle I see is the getting typed on a jet without an ATP or 1000 hours TT. I don't recall the exact FAR, and my book is not with me on the road today, so I apologize for that. However, I do know that if the aircraft is certified single pilot, SIC time cannot be logged. I know only because I was going to fly a corporate gig as FO in a Citation and was told by the CP that unfortunately I couldn't log it until I became PIC or typed and allowed to fly a leg. If you're typed in the aircraft and the PIC is a current CFI he could call it instruction. The main question is: Would the PIC be legal under the FAR's to make a flight if you got sick and didn't show up? If the answer is yes, then you cannot log SIC time.

For the CJ or any single pilot capable turbo-jet, FlightSafety will not type someone CE-525s (single Pilot) with that amount of time. They will only let you get the CE-525 type which in turn requires an SIC. Yes you can be an SIC with a PIC that is typed CE-525s and log SIC time as long as the PIC has a 61.58 Procheck. There are times (derferred equipment) that the airplane MUST be flown by 2.

Bad info from that CP. You can even get an SIC type in a CE-525 or CE-500.

 

[BushwickBill]

Nubi not sure what you have been doing for $$$ all this time but try to interest the aircraft owner in your ability to manage the aircraft for him. As someone he trusts you can get your foot in the door this way. Once you prove yourself to be valuable the aircraft owner will want to keep you around. Work out the flying part later.

Also keep in mind that rich mo-fos are not to be trusted. They will wipe the floor with your face. I know this from personal experience. Family friend or not watch your back.

 

[NW Flyer]

All good advice. I couldn't tell from your post, but I will assume this will not be an owner/pilot, but and owner/passenger.

If that is true, then here is what I believe would be everyone's best course of action. For the first couple of years, forget that this can be a single pilot plane. That doesn't mean it HAS to be. Hire a full time Captain for the airplane. The perfect guy would be a very experienced corporate type that has run a flight department, and acted as a company flight instructor/check airman. You would hire him with the understanding that for the first year, he would be the Captain, and you the FO. Get him his type, and you an SIC type. Fly that way for a year. At your 1 year recurrent, you get your type, and then you have two Captains, and you can then alternate legs or days with the other guy after that.

There is too much to learn for you just to go get current, get the type and go. Spend a year on the road with an experienced corporate pilot and you will start to get the drift.

 

[nubi78]

Hello all, Thanks for your advice.

I have been speaking with a few pilots in my area and one overwhelming note has been become evident. I will be logging SIC time, and not PIC time until I become qualified to log PIC from the insurance perspective.

That being said, these pilots recommend I not take a jet job for SIC time primarily because they view SIC time as worthless. It was also noted that it would be more advantageous for me to log PIC time by getting a gig instructing.

I find it strange that a year of CFI time is more valuable then a year in the right seat of a Citation logging SIC time. Do you agree?

Also, if the main hurdle is insurance then how the hell am I supposed to ever get out of the SIC rut and actually log PIC time in the Citation? It seems like a dead end if you can't get PIC time. Your thoughts?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Obviously, the plan is to fly the aircraft with two pilots: you as the SIC and an experienced PIC that passes insurance company muster. Yes, you can log the SIC time and yes, SIC jet is more valuable than PIC instructing (As a former CFI, I will say that you learn a lot about flying while teaching and a LOT more about people). It is my understanding that any of the "single pilot" jets require an endorsement on the type rating to operate single pilot. No endorsement: must have an SIC on board (can any CJ guys confirm that?). As NW Flyer pointed out, go to school and get your type rating as soon as you can. Since this sounds like a pure Part 91 gig, once you have your type rating, yes you can log the time in the left seat as PIC. The other guy satisfies the insurance company but either one of you satisfies the regulation for logging PIC time as long as you hold the type and are driving the car from the left seat (some employers say this isn't "true" PIC because you didn't "sign" for the airplane--bollocks in my opinion). The insurance company doesn't get to say how you log time, the CFR does. The insurance company gets to say whether the time you have in all categories meets their demands for insuring you.

 

[imacdog]

Hello all, Thanks for your advice.

I have been speaking with a few pilots in my area and one overwhelming note has been become evident. I will be logging SIC time, and not PIC time until I become qualified to log PIC from the insurance perspective.

That being said, these pilots recommend I not take a jet job for SIC time primarily because they view SIC time as worthless. It was also noted that it would be more advantageous for me to log PIC time by getting a gig instructing.

I find it strange that a year of CFI time is more valuable then a year in the right seat of a Citation logging SIC time. Do you agree?

Also, if the main hurdle is insurance then how the hell am I supposed to ever get out of the SIC rut and actually log PIC time in the Citation? It seems like a dead end if you can't get PIC time. Your thoughts?

So what your friends are saying is half the pilots in this country are logging worthless time. Does that make sense to you? To be a jet PIC eventually, you are going to have to do some right seat time in a jet. You simply can't go to the left seat with 200 hours of piston single time.

 

[pilotpat]

I still stand by my original comment that SIC time cannot be logged in a single pilot jet or ANY other aircraft where the type certificate does not REQUIRE more than one pilot. Now, things might be a bit different if you are a 135 operator and your OpSpecs have specified two pilots required. Its part 91, purely...there are no OpSpecs. So, unless the autopilot or something else is MEL'd, someone show me how you can log SIC. Even if the insurance company says the owner needs another pilot on board for the first 500 hours, they are not regulatory in nature and therefore cannot override the FAR's to allow one to log the time.

Nubi, there'd be nothing cooler than you being in the seat on this airplane, I just wouldn't want you to fly for a year and then have some FAA guy tell you the time was worthless. As far as sitting SIC and logging the time ~ you gotta start somewhere as Imacdog pointed out.

 

[rjpilot7667]

I'm not sure but I think a CJ is a single pilot airplane. Get an experienced captain and learn as much as you can. when you meet the time req. you fly as pic. Groton mulit ratings in Groton CT does a great job at multi training and I think its alot cheaper than ATP. You will also not need a type rating right off the bat. You can got to school get some experience and then go back and get a type. If its all part 91 that will be a breeze. if its 135 it may be a bit more difficult. sounds like a great opportunity if you want to get back into aviation. flying corporate is alot of fun!!!! Enjoy

 

[blzr]

The CJ's are single pilot jets, but not all pilots for those jets are Single Pilot Typed, so they Do require two pilots.

Your time in type, even though it is SIC will definately help you down the road. Flight instructing is great and will help you build your time, but it won't get you any more prepared for flying jets and CRM. (although you don't have to be a rocket scientist to do either).

 

[NW Flyer]

Sorry PilotPat, but I have to disagree with you.

Gutshotdraw is correct in that the airplane in question can be operated either single pilot or two pilot. By default, it's a two pilot airplane, single pilot is the exception, and it requires special authorizations. Fly it two pilot, and log the time. It's not wasted time, and if your goal is to fly jets, you will be learning about 1000% more towards that goal than if you were instructing in a 172.

 

[pilotpat]

I couldn't agree more that he wouldn't be wasting his time...that's how we've all done it! But I guess I don't understand the whole single pilot jet thingy. I was under the impression that if the Type Certificate says single pilot, then that's what it is. Like, if you swap the words King Air 90 for CJ1.

 

[blzr]

I couldn't agree more that he wouldn't be wasting his time...that's how we've all done it! But I guess I don't understand the whole single pilot jet thingy. I was under the impression that if the Type Certificate says single pilot, then that's what it is. Like, if you swap the words King Air 90 for CJ1.

it is, only if you get the single pilot type rating. I think that in order to get it, you have to have X amount of total time, Pic and time in type to qualify.

 

[nubi78]

Ok Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let me try to read this back to you so when I talk to the owner of this company, I sound like I know what I am talking about.

Step 1 is the owner should hire a captain who is experienced in running a flight department. He needs to be type rated in the CJ that the owner is going to purchase and should have a lot of flight time. In my best interest, this pilot should *not* be certified to fly Citations single pilot so I can log SIC time.

Step 2 I will get myself back into the air in a 172RG or similar type complex aircraft to scrape the rust off of my wings for about 10-15 hours.

Step 3. I will go get my multi-engine rating in a piston twin.

Step 4. I do not need a type rating to log SIC time but if I want to log PIC time, then I will have to get my type rating. I will make the case that I want to get my type rating shortly after my multi-engine rating.

Along those lines, I should be able to safely fly right seat as SIC in this aircraft after the type rating (right?)? Also, I understand that a company like Flight Safety is used to having pilots like me with no jet time successfully get my type rating… Right?

Step 5 I can now fly SIC in the Citation. The insurance will probably be higher then a pilot with a higher number of hours but it is possible.

Step 6. When I accumulate some experience, I can start to log PIC time when acting as PIC (since I have the type rating). The insurance company would not be happy about this but the regulations fall in the FAA’s domain. So, I do log SIC time when not acting as PIC and PIC time when acting as PIC.

Step 7. Profit!!!

Your thoughts?

 

[BushwickBill]

Ok Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let me try to read this back to you so when I talk to the owner of this company, I sound like I know what I am talking about.

Step 1 is the owner should hire a captain who is experienced in running a flight department. He needs to be type rated in the CJ that the owner is going to purchase and should have a lot of flight time. In my best interest, this pilot should *not* be certified to fly Citations single pilot so I can log SIC time.

Step 2 I will get myself back into the air in a 172RG or similar type complex aircraft to scrape the rust off of my wings for about 10-15 hours.

Step 3. I will go get my multi-engine rating in a piston twin.

Step 4. I do not need a type rating to log SIC time but if I want to log PIC time, then I will have to get my type rating. I will make the case that I want to get my type rating shortly after my multi-engine rating.

Along those lines, I should be able to safely fly right seat as SIC in this aircraft after the type rating (right?)? Also, I understand that a company like Flight Safety is used to having pilots like me with no jet time successfully get my type rating… Right?

Step 5 I can now fly SIC in the Citation. The insurance will probably be higher then a pilot with a higher number of hours but it is possible.

Step 6. When I accumulate some experience, I can start to log PIC time when acting as PIC (since I have the type rating). The insurance company would not be happy about this but the regulations fall in the FAA’s domain. So, I do log SIC time when not acting as PIC and PIC time when acting as PIC.

Step 7. Profit!!!

Your thoughts?

You've almost got it down.

Step 4 is wrong.

Step 5 you can fly SIC in a Citation CJ1 with a SIC endorsement. Look up 61.55b. Please get training in the aircraft your flying. Don't just let them pencil whip your logbook.

You'll need 500 hours in type or 1000 hours Total Time before you can get your type rating.

You can take the 70% course now. It is basicly the whole type course but no type ride. You should take this course with the captain that you hire.

Your going to have to make sure that the captain you hire is a good guy and is interested in training you on the job.

As soon as you reach 1000 hours Total Time go get your type rating. The sit left seat when the captain feels your up to it. If he is a good guy he'll help you work your way into the left seat. If he's a jerk he could get the owners ear and push you out of the picture.

Good Luck

 

[LJ45]

Most guys have the CE525(s) type rating (s = Single pilot). That doesn't mean it can be flown with a SIC and the SIC log SIC time, if the PIC has had the training to act as PIC of an aircraft with more than one crewmember. (i.e. FAR 61.58 Pilot-in-command proficiency check: Operation of aircraft requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.)

The AFM for the CJ has some information on this.

 

[pilotpat]

I'm thoroughly confused and happy to fly my Falcon 20!! hahahaa!!

 

[MissKittyKat]

Nubie, if you don't or aren't going to pursue a career in aviation then why? This was your first question. You have low time hours but that is ok. Just really know if you want to do this. Flying recreational planes is easy. A teenager can take off, and land in a recreational plane.

If your are doing something you don't want to do, then don't do it!

If you want do something that's for you and you can handle it,THEN D0 IT!

You have some time, logging in, I say go for it!

Personally, if you want to fly, and you haven't done it in awhile , then you need to go out and do it.

Pursue your dreams, and do it in the right way.

(i am hearing the voice of my deaceased fiancee) Bruce, would encourage you to do what is right)

He was a pilot, for 40 years, Since he was very encouraging, very positive with people,

All my best to you sir! Good Luck!