Need help! (Long post)

[NW Flyer]

All good advice. I couldn't tell from your post, but I will assume this will not be an owner/pilot, but and owner/passenger.

If that is true, then here is what I believe would be everyone's best course of action. For the first couple of years, forget that this can be a single pilot plane. That doesn't mean it HAS to be. Hire a full time Captain for the airplane. The perfect guy would be a very experienced corporate type that has run a flight department, and acted as a company flight instructor/check airman. You would hire him with the understanding that for the first year, he would be the Captain, and you the FO. Get him his type, and you an SIC type. Fly that way for a year. At your 1 year recurrent, you get your type, and then you have two Captains, and you can then alternate legs or days with the other guy after that.

There is too much to learn for you just to go get current, get the type and go. Spend a year on the road with an experienced corporate pilot and you will start to get the drift.

 

[nubi78]

Hello all, Thanks for your advice.

I have been speaking with a few pilots in my area and one overwhelming note has been become evident. I will be logging SIC time, and not PIC time until I become qualified to log PIC from the insurance perspective.

That being said, these pilots recommend I not take a jet job for SIC time primarily because they view SIC time as worthless. It was also noted that it would be more advantageous for me to log PIC time by getting a gig instructing.

I find it strange that a year of CFI time is more valuable then a year in the right seat of a Citation logging SIC time. Do you agree?

Also, if the main hurdle is insurance then how the hell am I supposed to ever get out of the SIC rut and actually log PIC time in the Citation? It seems like a dead end if you can't get PIC time. Your thoughts?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Obviously, the plan is to fly the aircraft with two pilots: you as the SIC and an experienced PIC that passes insurance company muster. Yes, you can log the SIC time and yes, SIC jet is more valuable than PIC instructing (As a former CFI, I will say that you learn a lot about flying while teaching and a LOT more about people). It is my understanding that any of the "single pilot" jets require an endorsement on the type rating to operate single pilot. No endorsement: must have an SIC on board (can any CJ guys confirm that?). As NW Flyer pointed out, go to school and get your type rating as soon as you can. Since this sounds like a pure Part 91 gig, once you have your type rating, yes you can log the time in the left seat as PIC. The other guy satisfies the insurance company but either one of you satisfies the regulation for logging PIC time as long as you hold the type and are driving the car from the left seat (some employers say this isn't "true" PIC because you didn't "sign" for the airplane--bollocks in my opinion). The insurance company doesn't get to say how you log time, the CFR does. The insurance company gets to say whether the time you have in all categories meets their demands for insuring you.

 

[imacdog]

Hello all, Thanks for your advice.

I have been speaking with a few pilots in my area and one overwhelming note has been become evident. I will be logging SIC time, and not PIC time until I become qualified to log PIC from the insurance perspective.

That being said, these pilots recommend I not take a jet job for SIC time primarily because they view SIC time as worthless. It was also noted that it would be more advantageous for me to log PIC time by getting a gig instructing.

I find it strange that a year of CFI time is more valuable then a year in the right seat of a Citation logging SIC time. Do you agree?

Also, if the main hurdle is insurance then how the hell am I supposed to ever get out of the SIC rut and actually log PIC time in the Citation? It seems like a dead end if you can't get PIC time. Your thoughts?

So what your friends are saying is half the pilots in this country are logging worthless time. Does that make sense to you? To be a jet PIC eventually, you are going to have to do some right seat time in a jet. You simply can't go to the left seat with 200 hours of piston single time.

 

[pilotpat]

I still stand by my original comment that SIC time cannot be logged in a single pilot jet or ANY other aircraft where the type certificate does not REQUIRE more than one pilot. Now, things might be a bit different if you are a 135 operator and your OpSpecs have specified two pilots required. Its part 91, purely...there are no OpSpecs. So, unless the autopilot or something else is MEL'd, someone show me how you can log SIC. Even if the insurance company says the owner needs another pilot on board for the first 500 hours, they are not regulatory in nature and therefore cannot override the FAR's to allow one to log the time.

Nubi, there'd be nothing cooler than you being in the seat on this airplane, I just wouldn't want you to fly for a year and then have some FAA guy tell you the time was worthless. As far as sitting SIC and logging the time ~ you gotta start somewhere as Imacdog pointed out.

 

[rjpilot7667]

I'm not sure but I think a CJ is a single pilot airplane. Get an experienced captain and learn as much as you can. when you meet the time req. you fly as pic. Groton mulit ratings in Groton CT does a great job at multi training and I think its alot cheaper than ATP. You will also not need a type rating right off the bat. You can got to school get some experience and then go back and get a type. If its all part 91 that will be a breeze. if its 135 it may be a bit more difficult. sounds like a great opportunity if you want to get back into aviation. flying corporate is alot of fun!!!! Enjoy

 

[blzr]

The CJ's are single pilot jets, but not all pilots for those jets are Single Pilot Typed, so they Do require two pilots.

Your time in type, even though it is SIC will definately help you down the road. Flight instructing is great and will help you build your time, but it won't get you any more prepared for flying jets and CRM. (although you don't have to be a rocket scientist to do either).

 

[NW Flyer]

Sorry PilotPat, but I have to disagree with you.

Gutshotdraw is correct in that the airplane in question can be operated either single pilot or two pilot. By default, it's a two pilot airplane, single pilot is the exception, and it requires special authorizations. Fly it two pilot, and log the time. It's not wasted time, and if your goal is to fly jets, you will be learning about 1000% more towards that goal than if you were instructing in a 172.

 

[pilotpat]

I couldn't agree more that he wouldn't be wasting his time...that's how we've all done it! But I guess I don't understand the whole single pilot jet thingy. I was under the impression that if the Type Certificate says single pilot, then that's what it is. Like, if you swap the words King Air 90 for CJ1.

 

[blzr]

I couldn't agree more that he wouldn't be wasting his time...that's how we've all done it! But I guess I don't understand the whole single pilot jet thingy. I was under the impression that if the Type Certificate says single pilot, then that's what it is. Like, if you swap the words King Air 90 for CJ1.

it is, only if you get the single pilot type rating. I think that in order to get it, you have to have X amount of total time, Pic and time in type to qualify.

 

[nubi78]

Ok Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let me try to read this back to you so when I talk to the owner of this company, I sound like I know what I am talking about.

Step 1 is the owner should hire a captain who is experienced in running a flight department. He needs to be type rated in the CJ that the owner is going to purchase and should have a lot of flight time. In my best interest, this pilot should *not* be certified to fly Citations single pilot so I can log SIC time.

Step 2 I will get myself back into the air in a 172RG or similar type complex aircraft to scrape the rust off of my wings for about 10-15 hours.

Step 3. I will go get my multi-engine rating in a piston twin.

Step 4. I do not need a type rating to log SIC time but if I want to log PIC time, then I will have to get my type rating. I will make the case that I want to get my type rating shortly after my multi-engine rating.

Along those lines, I should be able to safely fly right seat as SIC in this aircraft after the type rating (right?)? Also, I understand that a company like Flight Safety is used to having pilots like me with no jet time successfully get my type rating… Right?

Step 5 I can now fly SIC in the Citation. The insurance will probably be higher then a pilot with a higher number of hours but it is possible.

Step 6. When I accumulate some experience, I can start to log PIC time when acting as PIC (since I have the type rating). The insurance company would not be happy about this but the regulations fall in the FAA’s domain. So, I do log SIC time when not acting as PIC and PIC time when acting as PIC.

Step 7. Profit!!!

Your thoughts?

 

[BushwickBill]

Ok Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let me try to read this back to you so when I talk to the owner of this company, I sound like I know what I am talking about.

Step 1 is the owner should hire a captain who is experienced in running a flight department. He needs to be type rated in the CJ that the owner is going to purchase and should have a lot of flight time. In my best interest, this pilot should *not* be certified to fly Citations single pilot so I can log SIC time.

Step 2 I will get myself back into the air in a 172RG or similar type complex aircraft to scrape the rust off of my wings for about 10-15 hours.

Step 3. I will go get my multi-engine rating in a piston twin.

Step 4. I do not need a type rating to log SIC time but if I want to log PIC time, then I will have to get my type rating. I will make the case that I want to get my type rating shortly after my multi-engine rating.

Along those lines, I should be able to safely fly right seat as SIC in this aircraft after the type rating (right?)? Also, I understand that a company like Flight Safety is used to having pilots like me with no jet time successfully get my type rating… Right?

Step 5 I can now fly SIC in the Citation. The insurance will probably be higher then a pilot with a higher number of hours but it is possible.

Step 6. When I accumulate some experience, I can start to log PIC time when acting as PIC (since I have the type rating). The insurance company would not be happy about this but the regulations fall in the FAA’s domain. So, I do log SIC time when not acting as PIC and PIC time when acting as PIC.

Step 7. Profit!!!

Your thoughts?

You've almost got it down.

Step 4 is wrong.

Step 5 you can fly SIC in a Citation CJ1 with a SIC endorsement. Look up 61.55b. Please get training in the aircraft your flying. Don't just let them pencil whip your logbook.

You'll need 500 hours in type or 1000 hours Total Time before you can get your type rating.

You can take the 70% course now. It is basicly the whole type course but no type ride. You should take this course with the captain that you hire.

Your going to have to make sure that the captain you hire is a good guy and is interested in training you on the job.

As soon as you reach 1000 hours Total Time go get your type rating. The sit left seat when the captain feels your up to it. If he is a good guy he'll help you work your way into the left seat. If he's a jerk he could get the owners ear and push you out of the picture.

Good Luck

 

[LJ45]

Most guys have the CE525(s) type rating (s = Single pilot). That doesn't mean it can be flown with a SIC and the SIC log SIC time, if the PIC has had the training to act as PIC of an aircraft with more than one crewmember. (i.e. FAR 61.58 Pilot-in-command proficiency check: Operation of aircraft requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.)

The AFM for the CJ has some information on this.

 

[pilotpat]

I'm thoroughly confused and happy to fly my Falcon 20!! hahahaa!!

 

[MissKittyKat]

Nubie, if you don't or aren't going to pursue a career in aviation then why? This was your first question. You have low time hours but that is ok. Just really know if you want to do this. Flying recreational planes is easy. A teenager can take off, and land in a recreational plane.

If your are doing something you don't want to do, then don't do it!

If you want do something that's for you and you can handle it,THEN D0 IT!

You have some time, logging in, I say go for it!

Personally, if you want to fly, and you haven't done it in awhile , then you need to go out and do it.

Pursue your dreams, and do it in the right way.

(i am hearing the voice of my deaceased fiancee) Bruce, would encourage you to do what is right)

He was a pilot, for 40 years, Since he was very encouraging, very positive with people,

All my best to you sir! Good Luck!