"ndb? That Son Of A Bi**h!"

[Rook]

That's a quote from that Flying Tiger crew that hit the mountain in Kuala Lumpur Malaysia sometime in the 80's. I hate to rehash that tragedy, but seeing how most of us in the airline enviornment hardly use NDB approaches (I've only shot the NDB into SBN in IMC)this is a question for pilots flying glass cockpits. I remember the tried and true method of Parelling the course, noting the deflection and doubling it and when your correction equals the deflection you're on course. When flying to the station you turn towards the head of the needle and when flying away from the station you turn away from the tail of the needle but is there any rules of thumb that are even simpler then this? Any comments are welcome and thanks in advance.

Rook
600' AGL Autopilot on.
'WHEW!'

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'd stick with the tried and true paralleling. When you parallel the course, the needle (1) always points to the course line and (2) tells you how much correction you need.

I'd go a step further. When tracking an NDB bearing inbound or outbound (but =especially= outbound), periodically turn so that your heading equals the course as a cross-check, even if you =think= that your correction angle is perfect.

And =always= make sure that your DG hasn't precessed. Especially on an outbound course, even a 5º error in your DG can make a big difference on where you are.

 

[Rook]

Thanks Mike.

I think that a lot of us Make the NDB a lot harder then it really needs to be. When I was doing my CFII training, my instructor told me "The NDB is so Easy that you make it hard on yourself. The needle ALWAYS points to the station." Appreciate the input.

Rook

 

[Mr. Cole]

Hey Rook, is that Mark from G-Force in your avatar?

Dave

 

[Rook]

It sure is. That was my favorite show when I was a kid. I've been a big fan of Anime ever since. Thanks for noticing.

Rook
600' AGL Autopilot on.
'WHEW!'

 

[Rook]

oops

sorry Mark in my reply to you I called you Mike. Guess it's true...Pilots hate to read.

Rook

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: oops

sorry Mark in my reply to you I called you Mike. Guess it's true...Pilots hate to read.

I've been called worse things. =Much= worse!

 

[TonyC]

...this is a question for pilots flying glass cockpits.


When flying ... blah, blah, blah... but is there any rules of thumb that are even simpler then this?

Yepp. Follow the magenta line.

 

[Ralgha]

The needle ALWAYS points to the station.

Hah, no it doesn't. I've watched it point as much as 20 degrees away from the station, this with an ADF that has been tested over and over again and proclaimed to be "as good as new".

 

[The_Russian]

Trust your feelings.....

The FAA method for tracking and intercepting NDB courses and bearings is by far the best way to navigate on the NDB. The formulas specified in the Intrument flying handbook are tried and true. Read chapter 7 in the IFH and you will be amazed by how accurate the NDB really is.

It's my favorite navaid! Especially with an RMI.

Ralgha,

A couple of things may be happening in your situation. First the ADF wiring may not be shielded causing interference from the voltage created by the alternator. Try turning the alternator off and see how the needle reads within five miles from the station. If that changes nothing it could be that particular NDB. The natural errors of the NDB could be at fault. Or just the quality of the maintenence of that particular NDB may be poor. For example, PRAIZ which is a compass locator at KFXE is difficult to recieve from 5nm away in most aircraft. However, RUBIN a compass locator at PBI, can be recieved easily on the ramp at FXE which is over 25nm away. The reception of RUBIN is also very accurate, while PRAIZ which is 7nm from FXE cannot be recieved at all from the ground. PRAIZ also sits next to a large power grid which could be the cause.

If an NDB is part of the enroute structure it is most likely to be very well maintained. If it is part of an approach, local funding may limit repairs in most cases.

Good Luck.

LET THE AM WAVES GUIDE YOU TO YOUR DESTINATION COMRADES!

 

[Ralgha]

Um, yes I know all that. The avionics shop's gone over the whole airplane multiple times. It is the particular NDB station. I was just venting on NDBs in general.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

Interestlying at SkyWest the RJ pilots aren't trained for NDB approaches so they aren't allowed. The EMB pilots are trained for them and they are allowed to do them. They often do an NBD approach into Sun Valley, Idaho and a few other places.

 

[Timebuilder]

Mark has good advice on flying the NDB approach.

Here's another piece. Approaches, no matter the type, happen in the real world. There is almost always some kind of wind, so plan for it. Use a wind correction angle that you associate with your airplane when flying other approaches with the same wind and direction averages, such as the VOR approaches you may have done. By turning to the course heading and checking the needle position, left or right, you will find out if you have too much or too little correction. If you are very lucky, you will have just the right amount.

And Mark's observation about the DG is SO important. I would check the DG against the compass when going to the station for the initial passage, on the outbound course, the procedure turn inbound (when used) and the approach to the station for the letdown to the MDA.

Also, remember this: an ADF WILL point to electrical discharges, like lightning.

Bad mojo, lightning.

 

[bobbysamd]

NDB approaches

One thing to add to the excellent advice given above:

Tune and identify the station, and keep the ADF volume turned up! A very common error in NDB work is turning down the ADF - and, amazingly, the NDB going off the air.

Examiners are known to turn off ADFs - and to bust instrument examinees who fail to keep the volume up.

 

[Timebuilder]

Good one, Bobby!

I had one instrument student complain that "that darned noise is driving me crazy!"

I said GOOD. Make sure it drives the examiner crazy, too!!!

 

[The_Russian]

BEE BEEP BEEP.......

Maybe thats how my mind got warped.............................

 

[Pickle]

What Tony said

Rook said: "this is a question for pilots flying glass cockpits."

On the 757 we just use LNAV, and follow the pretty magenta line like TonyC said. Our 737-800s don't even have an RMI installed. The 757s do though. As far as turning up the volume, I always do that in the sim, the check airmen hate that!!

 

[TonyC]

Re: What Tony said

Rook said: "this is a question for pilots flying glass cockpits."

On the 757 we just use LNAV, and follow the pretty magenta line like TonyC said. Our 737-800s don't even have an RMI installed. The 757s do though. As far as turning up the volume, I always do that in the sim, the check airmen hate that!!

In the MD-11, if the Identifier is displayed, it's tuned and identified. I haven't listened to a Morse code in a looooooong time.

 

[UnstableAviator]

Re: NDB approaches

Tune and identify the station, and keep the ADF volume turned up! A very common error in NDB work is turning down the ADF - and, amazingly, the NDB going off the air.

I still wonder why ADFs manufactured after ~1955 don't have an "Off" flag. One would think that the same technology present in VOR receivers could make its way into the old school ADF.

 

[Rook]

Thanks for all the responses.
Rook(nursing some beers after getting kicked in the nads in ths sim)

600' AGL Autopilot on.
'WHEW!'

 

[Jmmccutc]

Hah, no it doesn't. I've watched it point as much as 20 degrees away from the station, this with an ADF that has been tested over and over again and proclaimed to be "as good as new".

thank you...someone else that agrees with me!!!!

 

[Pickle]

TonyC said: "In the MD-11, if the Identifier is displayed, it's tuned and identified. I haven't listened to a Morse code in a looooooong time."

Now you are just showing off.

 

[atldc9]

We don't have NDB/ADF's installed, not on our op's specs, not in the FOTM, not in my house. I will not shoot an NDB approach. I could not, should not. I won't.

That being said, like the MD 11, the 717 tunes and ID's the identifier magically. I forgot they even broadcast them.

Now turning up the marker beacons in the sim, THAT WILL pis* off the check airmen. 4 hours of beep- beep-beep.