Naval Flight Officer time

[Bustamove]

I'm an NFO looking to transition (read retire) back into civil aviation. I've got about 300 hours private time over 25 years and am working towards the needed commercial ratings. Does anyone know how/if carriers, exec jet, freight haulers, etc. account for A-6 right seat and F-14 back seat time? I've heard of NFOs getting SIC time for the A-6 since it was considered multi-piloted even though it only had one stick, and backseaters getting credit in some way, but can't find any hard examples.

A couple thousand hours jelly beaning around the world ought to count for something, I hope. Anyone been here before?

 

[shootr]

Bustamove,

No flame intended here, but I gotta believe that no company will accept your NFO time as flight time. There are some threads on the board addressing FE time, both military and civilian, and the common theme seems to be you've got to be a pilot with controls in an airplane requiring you to be in that seat as a pilot to count it as SIC time. Student time and dual received time may be more vague but I think you're going to have to put in some serious civilian dues for quite a while in order to reach your goal if it's being an airline pilot.

Any former NFO's got a disagreement with my opinion? Maybe I'm wrong and there's a maverick (no pun intended) company out there that'll accept the NFO time. By the way pilots do not count their Special Crew Time unless they were the Aircraft Commander.

Good Luck,
shootr

 

[Slim]

Check out this organization...Army Pilot to Airline Pilot (APTAP). I apologize for not knowing the web address. Type APTAP in your browser. You will find them.

It's primarily run by former Army helicopter pilots, some of whom have moved on to major carriers. They will help anyone (I'm non-rated!), regardless of branch or military duties.

Comair has several of their members flying and has at least two Air Guard C-130 navigators flying (one is an O-6). I have flown with both. I can't tell you how their nav time was counted, if at all.

Have you used your Montgomery GI Bill benefits (Chpt. 106)? If not, people at APTAP can assist you.

Good luck...fly safe!

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I've got a few thousand special crew hours too. Nobody cares about it, although I put the crew time down on my resume. Does is make any difference? Can't hurt, but I doubt it. Any thoughts, Jim?

 

[ex nav]

Bustamove,

Shootr is correct is his assessment that your time does not count for anything so far as logging PILOT time. I included my time in my resumes on a separate line for to show that I was involved in aviation for throughout my military career.

Take Slim's advice about the GI bill and go get your 737 type after you meet the ATP mins. Get any type of flying job to get you up to the hours requires for the ATP level and get that type. Then, with a little luck, and a great interview, you can join Shootr at SWA. Wish I had done the same (I'm on furlough from a major right now and back in the military after retirement......never say never)

Good luck and hope this helps.....

 

[Bustamove]

Gents:

Thanks all for your thoughts. I wasn't expecting good news but am trying to claw my way out of the information vacuum that 20 years bobbing around the oceans brings about.

I definitely expect to pay some dues, but right now my goal is to get into a good corporate stable and not the airlines. I'm using the GI Bill right now to get through a Multi CFII. Don't know if I'll have any left after that but am ready to spend the money on a type rating if need be after building some hours the hard way, instructing, regional, whatever.

Any thoughts from the wise sages on the best route to corporate?

 

[Krunch]

Unfortunately I believe your time does not count for much if anything... I myself have 500 hours in the backseat old Double Ugly F-4E and I don't include it on anything. I was lucky and escaped to get my pilot wings and 2500 hours of single-seat single engine life... Vipers Rule...

"Krunch"

 

[F18-FDX]

Busta,

Ditto on all the above. I've got an F-14 RIO bud who just got out and is interviewing with ACA, but he has over 1000 hours civilian pilot time, CFII, ATP etc. The only thing his NFO hours count for on applications is "other" i.e., "avaiation-related experience." Hopefully you will make some corporate contacts in your journey towards the applicable ratings who can help you out.

 

[JXB]

Bustamove,

Check you private messages.

 

[JimNtexas]

According to the famous Pinkerton FAR FAQ, there is a circumstance where we WSO/NFO types can log pilot time. It is this: If you are sole manipulator of the controls of an airplane for which the FAA does not issue a type rating (such as the F-4 or F-15E), and you have the appropriate FAA pilot certificate for the catagory and class (airplane, multiengine, land), then you may count that time as PIC for the purposes of the FARs.

If you are in a seat with no flight controls (such as an EF-111 right seat) or you don't have have a mulitengine rating for your multiengine stick time, then it counts for nothing with the FAA.

I have a lot of stick time in the F-4, and a little bit in the F-111 (since of most of my Vark time was Ravens), but I didn't have a multiengine rating when I did it, so that time doesn't count for any FAA currency or certificate requirement.

Even if I had my multi back then, I could not have counted the hour of yoke time I got in the "Faker" Learjet 35, because the FAA issues a type rating for the Learjet 35, and I didn't have one.

In commercial aviation, you don't dare mix in your WSO/NFO time with your pilot time. it just "Isn't Done".

The bottom line, as unfair as it might be, is that our WSO/NFO time counts for very little in the civilian world.

Jim

 

[bssthound]

Busta',
I included my WSO and Nav time in my resume'. I was interviewed at ASA by a former Army guy who understood
what the time "meant." By having it on the resume' I figured
I'd be asked to explain it and then could put the best possible
spin on my past experience to show I wouldn't be completely
out of my environment in in a fast moving jet, operating in and
out of busy aerodromes, and already have SA. No, it won't
count toward a rating, but put prominently on that resume'
you'll make yourself look that much better than everyone else.

BEST of luck,

Bassethound

p.s. When I had my multi I did log what little time I flew in
the F-4 with a sqdn pilot who was an MEI as dual received.
He was an F-4 IP, too, so what the heck??

 

[Bustamove]

Jim/Bsst/Jim:

These last few posts are real useful and shine a little more positive light on the whole thing. I just gotta believe being one of two guys in a tactical jet is worth something if kept in the proper context and if the interviewer knows something about the business. Your posts help to put the importance of nuance and knowing your audience out front. That's the kind of gouge that's important at this stage.

Next time you're in HNL first beer's on me. You have to work like everyone else to get lei'd, though...Buster

 

[46Driver]

While we are on the subject of flight time, does anybody know what companies count military helicopter time and which ones don't? Reported for instructor duty at NAS Whiting during a bad week (i.e., helo draft) and went to South Field - some of the other bubbas showed up a week later and got sent to North Field (T-34C land). Heard that SouthWest, JetBlue, and FedEx count helo time as "other". Trying to figure out which companies I can forget about and which I have a realistic shot at in the future. Thanks.

 

[Andy Neill]

I understand that Delta counts all helicopter time AFTER the minimum times are met in Fixed Wing. What I mean is that IF their minimums are 1500 fixed wing and an applicant has 1600 FW and 1000 RW, he is seen the same as someone having 2600 FW.

SkyWest counts 50% of your first 1500 RW hours toward the 1000 hour total minimum. The 100 ME must be FW but the 100 instrument can be actual, simulated, or simulator in any category.

 

[F18-FDX]

46Driver,
None of the majors count helo time toward minimum qualifications, and unfortunately I don't think that any company does. Here are FedEx qualification requirements from the website:


1500 hours total fixed-wing time as pilot-in command (PIC) or first officer (SIC) including a minimum 1000 hours PIC in fixed-wing jet, fixed wing multi-engine turbo-prop, or multi-engine recip over 20,000 LBGW or combination thereof.

Note: PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls.

Note: FedEx considers only pilot time in fixed wing aircraft toward minimum qualifications. This does not include simulator, helicopter, flight engineer, bombardier, navigator, RIO, EWO, WSO, NFO, or Special Crew


The bottom line is you will have to get the minimum quals somewhere, then your helo experience will be valuable on an application. I think a great resource for you would be the APTAP website, I ran across it during my job search. It's "Army Pilot to Airline Pilot"-www.aptap.org. Obviously these are predominantly helo guys and have developed a network to help other guys make it to the airlines, it was founded by Army guys but they welcome all military and seem like a great group with great resources. I didn't spend much time there but I think there is alot of really good info, I think the grand majority of these guys get the minimums to get on with a commuter (lower min qualification times), then work their way up, many have been very successful.

If this is what you really want to do, go for it, but realize that if your goal is a major airline and all your time is helo, it may be a long road to get there (and oh by the way, the commuters don't pay much). Let me know if you need any more specific info or if I can help in any way.

 

[46Driver]

F18- FDX,
Thanks for the gouge - especially on FedEx. We spend a lot of time flying students to Memphis on cross countries and you can imagine where the Lieutenants and Ensigns want to go to party (it ain't Beale St....)
I am in the regionals now and have been flying a Dornier Regional Jet for the past year (and yes, the pay really, really, really sux - the reserves are a lifesaver). I fully understand that I have to get the minimum amount of fixed wing time - considering upgrade time it is going to take another 3 years. The million dollar question is: After I reach the required mins, will my 3000+ turbine helo hours be regarded favorably or am I still at a fatal disadvantage to someone with 1000 more fixed wing hours but less total time overall?
Thanks again for the info and I'll try not to slow y'all down on the Memphis ILS (we can get the JetRanger up to 130....)

 

[F18-FDX]

46,
The fact that you are already flying w/the regionals is awesome, I thought you were still on AD. And, as concidence would have it, THIS MORNING I flew with a prior USAF guy who had most of his time in CH-53s! He started out as a the USAF equivalent of a SERGRAD and instructed for several years in the T-38, then ended up flying helos for a long time. I think he had to bump up his hours a bit after retirement, then got hired here 5 years ago. FedEx loves military, so you would probably have a better chance getting on here with "just the minimums" than other majors out there. But then again, I would say why would you want to go anywhere else? I love everything about this company and am more than happy with my decision to come here. Last year everyone was asking me why I was going to FedEx, now they are all furloughed and asking for recommendations. Anyway, you're definitely on the right track, good luck and let me know if I can provide you any more info.

 

[InHot]

Yo, 46 Driver!

Bubba,

My first interview when I retired was with American Eagle (yuck). I was offered a job (turned it down), however during the HR interview with a 20 something yr old pimply faced wuss, the guy looks at my flight time and says: "I see you flew helicopters." His inflection and demeanor made it clear that it was an ACCUSATION ! It was incredible, I felt as though I had to defend having flown helos!

Now, when I meet a prospective employer and he asks me about my background, I proudly announce my helo experience. I then explain that I relaized early on that there was not a tremendous demand for gunship pilots in the civilian sector and I decided to make myself more marketable by getting out of helos and obtaining FW ME time.

Moral of story: some uniformed dweebs consider helo time as a negative. Don't let them do that. "Best defense is a good offense." List that ugly 46 time proudly and go on the offensive! (you got to admit it ain't a pretty flying machine).

(we can get the JetRanger up to 130....)

. Reminds me of a time flying a Cobra on a PAR into El Toro. The controller asked me to slow down because I was overtaking an F4 ahead of me. I was doing 160 kts, just because I could. Must have P.O.'d the F4 driver!

Good Luck & SF!

 

[DCAA320]

Helos

Same thing happened to me in my SH-60B at North Isalnd in the GCA pattern, was asked to slow down cause I was eatin up an S-3 in front of me






Reminds me of a time flying a Cobra on a PAR into El Toro. The controller asked me to slow down because I was overtaking an F4 ahead of me. I was doing 160 kts, just because I could. Must have P.O.'d the F4 driver!

Good Luck & SF!

 

[Vicman]

In Hot..

yeah i second that....helicopters can do everything + more than their FW counterparts.. i.e. tracking airways, instrument approached and holds until flare to hover. I'll admit that learning to hover beats everything i've done in FW..RW is exciting and challenging and i'm trying to get a reserve/guard slot in FW or RW..hopefully RW. i learned to respect the chopper and those who've flown them and i'm quick to defend RW time to my friends/ FW cohorts.

regards.