Navagating across the pond before GPS

[Deli Guy]

I was a student on the very last T-29 nav training mission, followed by a few missions in the mighty T-43. We learned how to navigate with sextant (HoMoTo), driftmeter, pressure pattern, consolan, manual Loran (used an oscilloscope to measure time difference, then plot the TD on a Loran chart), and of course, dead reckoning.

We even had a class on A-N ranges!

So you remember putting shoe polish in the eyepiece of the sextant, so when the nav looks into it he comes away with a hysterical "black eye" he does not know about until he looks in the mirror. Anyone remember the PLZT?

 

[seagle]

Sextants

How about setting in the filters on the sextant for night cel or watching students playing U-Boat commander because they forgot to extend the sextant? Night cel training made for some memorable flights!

 

[GuardGuy]

No, they took Cell nav out of the syllabus several years ago. The only insight we get to it at Randolph is a glass case with some of the equipment in it and a few paragraphs talking about it.

Also, they no longer teach Grid Nav to at UNT. It is now a certification for those units that go to the Poles.

 

[seagle]

Sad to hear that about the Cel Nav. It did more than just teach you about celestial navigation - it demanded that you understand and use dead reckoning and taught you how to navigate under pressure. I guess HOMOTO had his last flight several years back.

 

[Candlerman]

This is probably the best thread FlightInfo has had in years (what this board should be)... Keep the posts coming!

 

[brainhurts]

I remember navs doing Airborne Radar Directed Approaches (ARDA'S) where he used the radar in map mode and fooled with the sector scan to "burn out" the airfield. It was set up like a non precision approach. The nav would get real serious and put a tapered "hood" (kind of looked like a black soccer cone, only with 2 eyeholes on the radar scope and give headings and descents based on this approach that was contrived under very stringent terrain rules, and the pilots would comply. It was a lot of pressure because the nav could come off looking really bad if he was "burning out" the local K Mart parking lot. The idea was for the nav not to "peek" and it was considered very bad form. Some navs could really do it but it seemed most of them faked it and the pilots would many times have to break off the training for safety reasons. I remember our squadron commander had decided to fly with a crew one time and since he did not get a chance to fly very often, he decided to hand fly an ARDA. The squadron commander was so busy with his cross check and flying a smooth airplane, he was actually breaking out in a sweat. The navs headings and descents were perfect! As he flew, the squadron commander would look at the copilot and shake his head knowingly about how sh1t hot this nav was doing. When they got to the "MDA" the squadron commander says "hey nav, take alook at this! nice approach" it was then that the squadron commander finally had a chance to look back at the nav, who had left his sideways chair was sitting in the jump seat with his hood to his eyes looking straight out the front windscreen! Priceless.

 

[seagle]

Guard Guy,

Are they still training Navs with the use of radar navigation - taking a radar fix and plotting it, then determining an alterheading (A/H) with ETAs and so forth? RSI (radar scope interpretation) was an art in itself - nothing like directing a SID or an ARDA (airborne radar directed approach) with just the use of your onboard radar and a TPC chart. I fly with guys today that don't have much insight into the use of radar for wx avoidance let alone as back up for navigation (use of gain, tilt and so on). Not throwing any stones - just an unfortunate consequence of technology (load the box with waypoints and go) and lack of radar training.

 

[Phaedrus]

seagel: Perhaps you gave me instruction? 86-14

 

[brainhurts]

85-05

 

[PhatAJ2008]

Amazing what I have learned from just one question...

 

[pilotyip]

Another NavTail

In Sept of 1968, I was going to make my first flight across the ocean as one of three Nav's in VP-30 under instruction of a qualifed navigator. We took about four hours the day before, plotting the great circle from St Johns to Strvanger, Norway (sp.?) on GLC charts, transferring to VL-30's, 5 degree Nav points, filled out Nav logs. Then the day we were going to leave we got forecast winds and temps then computed time, distance, fuel burn, drafted the Howgoesit; mind you all by hand and E6-B. We put his in a Nav bag. Off we go on our great adventure, over St Johns we open the Nav bag to start Navigating, Oh my Gad, it is the wrong bag, mind you this was the standard brown leather Nav bag carried in AOCS they all looked alike. It is US FLIP chart bag; all of our work is still in the Nav office at Pax River. We find one GLC chart on the airplane; this is about 24" of chart covering the whole distance across the Atlantic. A degree of latitude is about 1/16" on this chart. There is no tuning back we are on a great liberty run. Our pencil marks are about 20 miles thick; the star shots all make perfect triangles, and we make our inbound clearance point off of Norway within 20 miles and three minutes. So much for 8 hours of Nav planning. In 1969 Lockheed came out with the Jet plan for the P-3, you could take the computer print out and just fly the heading and time hitting your Nav points without any problem.

 

[seagle]

451st Instructor from 83-85 and Wing/Stan Eval from 85-87. Remember where you bought the coffee and doughnuts in the academic building (across from the O'Club) - that was Wing/Stan Eval.

 

[JimNtexas]

I remember navs doing Airborne Radar Directed Approaches (ARDA'S) where he used the radar in map mode and fooled with the sector scan to "burn out" the airfield. It was set up like a non precision approach.

The F-111 nav could drive the ILS needles with the radar for ARAs.

 

[mannyaplus11]

There I was:
1986, B-52G, senior navigator with a new Aircraft Commander (former T-38 FAIP) on his first trip out of CONUS. Middle of the Atlantic on our way to just off the coast of England to do a Harpoon Missle Run.
Both INS's decide to crap out, celestial fixes are showing 20 miles north of the INS's. Radar Nav and I are arguing about who is right, me or the INS's.
Finally, the AC decides he can't take it anymore, and says, "NAV!!!! Where the Hell are we?". I tell him, "I'm not exactly sure, but, keep heading east, we're making good time.".

Turns out, I was right, the INS's were wrong. Mission accomplished.

Ah, the good old days.

 

[fr8doggie]

A Classic

How did aircraft navigate across the vast oceans before GPS? Obviously they could not get a signal from a VOR... Just curious..
-AJ

Read "Song of the Sky" by Guy Murchie. Published in 1954. It is a great read and covers in great and easy to understand detail how long range nav was done before the days of INS, GPS, and VLF/OMEGA. It is not in print any more but you can find a copy in most large used bookstores. It is also available on Amazon.com. Make sure to get the hard back copy. It has many fine (whimsical) pen and ink drawings scattered throughout. Ballantine Books published an abbreviated version titled "The World Aloft".