Navagating across the pond before GPS

[Mooneymite]

I'm amused when I run across a guy who speaks nostalgically about Loran. He's thinking of a compact little navigation box with a "Direct to" button on it, but it conjures up memories of a big black box with a little screen which was essentially an oscilloscope (can't remember the Navy nomenclature). It also conjures up bad memories of trying to decide if I was looking at a 1 hop or 2 hop in all the "grass" as the sun was just starting to come up.

Sometimes we were lucky to get a single LOP from the LORAN and cross it with a sun shot.

Always carry a DR plot!

What would we have thought if someone had a working handheld GPS back then.

Witchcraft!

 

[GuardGuy]

Guard Guy,

Are they still training Navs with the use of radar navigation - taking a radar fix and plotting it, then determining an alterheading (A/H) with ETAs and so forth? RSI (radar scope interpretation) was an art in itself - nothing like directing a SID or an ARDA (airborne radar directed approach) with just the use of your onboard radar and a TPC chart. I fly with guys today that don't have much insight into the use of radar for wx avoidance let alone as back up for navigation (use of gain, tilt and so on). Not throwing any stones - just an unfortunate consequence of technology (load the box with waypoints and go) and lack of radar training.

Yes we still learn how to construct and fly ARA's. We can theoretically take a JOG, TPC or ONC and the TDZE or Airport Elevation plus 500 or the non precision approach MDA whichever is higher and build the approach. However, here at the "Rock" we have published ARA approaches that we fly and we can back them up with SCNS. It has to be approved by Terps before we can fly it. There are some exceptions in the regs if it is mission critical.

At Randolph we do build them from scratch and fly them as part of our mission profile in the sim.

Also, we still take Radar fixes. When we Coast Out or Coast In fix, we plot the SCNS and back it up with either a navaid or radar fix. They still have the radar phase at Randolph where we lose our navaids once cleared on course and until we begin the arrival. All the fixes for the mission are radar.

for the arrival we will spin a point-to-point to the IAF on the E6-B and have to be within 3 miles of it. We will fly a published TACAN approach usually with the arc and we have to calculate the lead radial for the inbound course.

A lot of awesome stuff to really help build SA and make me a better civilian pilot.

 

[seagle]

Thanks for the update on Nav School-at least Radar Nav (what I taught at Mather) is alive and well. I wonder what the powers to be think about the Chinese recently taking out a satellite? Kind of hard to fly GPS Nav w/o those man made celestial bodies floating around us.

 

[Fit59]

Any of you civilian ocean crossers required to carry an E6B or CR-3 with you?

 

[fr8doggie]

Any of you civilian ocean crossers required to carry an E6B or CR-3 with you?

When I was first hired at FDX (1990) we were all required to carry a "flight navigation computer". Somewhere along the way that was dropped from the FOM. I preferred the CR-3 myself.

Do they even teach pilots how to use those things any more?

 

[Spooky 2]

Another facet to the Nav question is the evolution of how the navigator was replaced over the years as the newer technology came available in the civil sector (mainly airlines).

Prior to and after WW2 the navigator was a regular part of just about any flying that was over vast distances regardless of whether it be over land or sea. As recently as the mid 70’ navigators were being used for operations transiting Africa and the Middle Eastern countries. Virtually all international airlines here in the US, including Pan Am, TWA, UAL (Hawaii only), Flying Tigers, Seaboard World, Slick, TIA World and a host of lesser know operators used navigators routinely. At Pan Am the 1st entry position for a new pilot was always the nav seat and this remained this way until in the mid sixties when the F/E seat became available for new hires. It was not uncommon to see an old grizzled Capt. at Pan Am move back to the nav seat just to check out the new guys nav procedures. Some of these guys could really bust your chops if they did not like your work.

Most of the navigators came up through the military pipeline but there were notable exceptions. After WW2 and up into the mid fifties the Radio Operator was another component of the international flight crew. Many Constellations and DC7’s had a formal Radio Operators station usually close to the two pilots. This was simply because many of the most remote parts of the word still used the telegraph key as the only source of communications. So, as technology progressed, the Radio Operator was eliminated. Many airlines gave the Radio Operator an opportunity to move over to the Nav seat, thus the progression on the flight deck remained in place. When UAL eliminated the Navs on the DC8’s going back and fourth to HNL, many of them were given the opportunity to move to the F/E position, some did and but most passed on this opportunity.

So what happened to the navigator in the sixties. Doppler/Loran A was the 1st assault on the nav requirement. Doppler worked well over “some” oceans. “Drop outs” were the biggest problem when operating with Doppler, especially in the Pacific. Bendix was the largest provider of Doppler systems as installed the B707’s/DC8’ during this period. The dual Doppler combined with the Edo Loran A was a powerful combination for many over water applications. In particular it worked well over the North Atlantic as the ocean tended to be rougher on the surface. It took awhile longer to get Doppler approval for the Pacific regions for this very reason. In the Pacific, CAL, NWA, PAA, TWA were all operating with Doppler/Loran, minus the navigator by 1969. Operations in the NCA/AMU were still required to use the navigators via grid navigation in these regions. Basically it took about a week of ground school and then several flights accompanied by either a real navigator or a pilot who was Doppler/Loran approved to be off and running. Typically there was a small pay override for these crews, something in the order of $4.00 per hour for the Capt. $3.00 for the F/O and $2.00 for the S/O as I recall. This advanced technology along with the B747’s that were arriving at a rapid rate in turn were responsible for some significant furloughs along about 1970 at Pan Am.

In the late sixties, Pan Am started experimenting with several inertial applications. Not sure but the first may have been a Singer INS that was installed in the B707 as a prelude to the Carrousel’s that finally showed up on the B747’s. There was some significant concern about the over all reliability of the Carousel 1V and Boeing had designed a Nav station in the B747 just in case things worked out differently. BOAC or now BA was reported to have had sextant mounts in their first few B747-100 as well. The rest is history as the various manufactures of INS, Delco, Singer, Litton etc prevailed and so here we are today. For those of you who have had the privilege of navigating a B707/DC8 to some far of destination, especially small island in the Pacific, the satisfaction of doing a great job is something that can never be overrated. So there you have it.

 

[Fit59]

When I was first hired at FDX (1990) we were all required to carry a "flight navigation computer". Somewhere along the way that was dropped from the FOM. I preferred the CR-3 myself.

Do they even teach pilots how to use those things any more?

The reason I asked is because I just went through a "long range nav" course at UPS and we went through a simulated diversion using a CR-3, plotter and dividers. Our FOM/IOM still requires us to carry a flight computer and plotter (the TSA has a problem with the dividers). I was wondering if any other airline still has this requirement. Thanks for the Purple input!

By the way, my CR-3 skills WERE certainly a bit rusty. Our instructor was a retired USAF Nav. and it seemed to me that he truly enjoyed his work. Maybe next year they will bring back the Sexton!

This is an interesting thread, keep it going!

 

[Spooky 2]

The reason I asked is because I just went through a "long range nav" course at UPS and we went through a simulated diversion using a CR-3, plotter and dividers. Our FOM/IOM still requires us to carry a flight computer and plotter (the TSA has a problem with the dividers). I was wondering if any other airline still has this requirement. Thanks for the Purple input!

By the way, my CR-3 skills WERE certainly a bit rusty. Our instructor was a retired USAF Nav. and it seemed to me that he truly enjoyed his work. Maybe next year they will bring back the Sexton!

This is an interesting thread, keep it going!

At Pan Am the E6B was the standard. I think Ed Weems (sp?) was a Pan American World Airways guy once upon a time. Old habits die hard!

 

[tomgoodman]

Systems Command Navigators

Our navigators on the EC-135N and NKC-135 had a challenging task: position the aircraft right next to an ICBM test impact area, over open ocean, at just the right moment. They would get a "time of first motion" report on the booster (via HF radio), and then refine their racetrack pattern. Needless to say, a position error could result in loss of photographic and telemetry data or, even worse, risk getting clobbered. When we eventually got the inertial system it made their job easier, but since it was only a single unit, everything had to be "backed up" with the old methods.

 

[PhatAJ2008]

Thanks for the post, Spooky 2... Good reading

And by the way, I was forced to use the E6B during my flight training last year, fr8doggie.
-AJ