My thoughts on S.65

[nightrider]

My thoughts are simple, when it worked for those guys they loved it and they knew all along that they were out at 60. The PGBC guarantees the retired guys 43000 a year and if they can't live on it tough, sell the second beach house.
Second, if they raise the age limit to 65 (another abitrary number) what is too stop these guys from attepting to raise it to 70 or unlimited retirement age. I don't want to spend the whole night having to babysit some 65 or 70 yr. old geeser.
Third, I don't want too work to 65 and I shouldn't be penalized for these guys lack of planning.

Fire away, you non retirement planning bas****s.

nightrider

 

[lostplnetairman]

Slight correction of your number:

http://www.pbgc.gov/workers-retirees/find-your-pension-plan/content/page789.html

HR Diva

 

[cactuspilot]

If you started investing somewhere around age 30-35 you otta have around 1m at age 60. Let it ride another 5yr and it would almost double.

Delay your upgrade 2 or 3 yrs and it will cost you about 200k.

 

[nightrider]

Your pgbc figures are wrong

The senate voted wednesday to force the PGBC to pay the maximum to airline pilots forced to retire at 60, this bill and amendment passed. Should see it soon. This means 43000 a yr. right now, more later

nightrider

 

[Flopgut]

HR Diva: Aren't you supposed to be a lawyer? So far I'm not too impressed with your info. I'm glad your posting here and I would like to learn more from you. But, so far, I think we are all better lawyers than you are a pilot?!

What I would really like to hear your thoughts on is how, if we change this once, how do we do so to preclude ever being asked to change it again? Because these pilots will get to 65 (or whatever) and want it changed again.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

If you started investing somewhere around age 30-35 you otta have around 1m at age 60. Let it ride another 5yr and it would almost double.


Delay your upgrade 2 or 3 yrs and it will cost you about 200k.

That is a sound arguement.

This was taken from a thread about the age 60 rule a few months ago. It was my response to another guy who was convinced that allowing guys to retire past 60 would hurt younger pilots financailly:

""I am not going to turn this into a math lesson, but if you are 28 you need to consider the impact this will have. You won't get an extra 5 super productive years, your extra years will just start later."

I realize that I will not upgrade for an additional 5 years. I don't have a problem with that. You are completely wrong in this regard: I will get an extra 5 years of FO pay...and at 75K to 85K for those 5 years that is fine by me. And my time in the left seat over the span of my career will not be any less if I retire at 65...I will just have to wait 5 more years before I get there (assuming that every pilot senior to me opts to continue flying past age 60).

Now, to steal your line, I don't want to turn this into a math lesson but that five years will get me an additional $400,000 to $450,000 (before taxes). If I invest 20% (pre-tax) of what I make into my 401k (or IRA), plus the 3% the company (AWA) matches, plus the 7% that they (AWA) give me regardless of what I invest, and then factor in compound interest...that comes out to alot of money by the time i'm 65. 20% + 3% + 7% of $80,000 = $24,000 a year for 5 years...earning compound interest for 20 or more years = alot. It certainly will get me quite a bit more money in the long run. Plus, I have the choice to retire whenever I feel that my retirement saving are enough to live on.

Now, I already know your next argument. You will say this: You could get CA pay five years sooner and therefore invest more 5 years sooner. That only matters if I stop receiving paychecks at age 60. If I retire at 65 that's 5 more years of paychecks that I will receive and 5 more years of compound interest...even if those 5 years happen to be at FO salary.

I get the impression that you would rather upgade sooner so that you can get a bigger paycheck sooner even though it means making less in the long run. I don't understand that at all.

"The majority of folks pushing for the change are 50+ and have questionable motives."

This statement is pure speculation. There is no possible way that you can know the motives of the majority of pilots unless you have interviewed every one of them, or unless you have interviewed enough of them to declare a majority.

"I think it is a bad rule and should (and will change). But every one I know who is personaly pushing for the change has a lot to benefit."

I have no problem admiting that I have much to benefit from the change. And I believe you do to. There is nothing wrong with being motivated by personal benefit. My finacial position will benefit incredibly.

The only drawback that that you seem to be considering is that you will have to wait a few extra years to upgrade to captain. That seems like a small price to pay if you ask me. And believe me, I want to upgade like everybody else.

"Sometimes they get upset when I do not share their enthusiasm"

I hope you can tell by my tone that I am not upset or confrotational...just passionate about what I believe, my well being, and my future."

 

[Champ42272]

For all of you smart guys out there, think about this. Your company's B fund was set up because you couldn't legally work from 60 to 65 (supposedly the most lucrative earning years of you life). Now that you will be able to work until 65, the companies will figure out rather quickly that you don't need that B fund anymore and they can save even more $Billions by not contributing to your B fund anymore. The law of unintended consequences strikes again (although I am sure that managament knew this all the time).

Champ42272

 

[Big Beer Belly]

That is a sound arguement.

This was taken from a thread about the age 60 rule a few months ago. It was my response to another guy who was convinced that allowing guys to retire past 60 would hurt younger pilots financailly:

Fly-n-hi ... your math is fuzzy. Say you are 40 now and delay your upgrade to 45. In those 5 years you would lose 100k/yr (salary and B-fund) at my airline. I don't have a FV calculator handy at the moment, but at 45 you would have given up approx 700k by not upgrading. 700k over 20 yrs (age 45-65) at market 50 yr avg of 10% (actually 10.3%, but we'll round) return would yield approx $5.5 MILLION!

You will need to be paid in excess of $1 MILLION/yr by your airline from age 60-65 to come close to breaking even! You have been conned by the old geezers into believing this is a good thing for the younger pilots. Quite the opposite, this is a huge financial loss for the young pilots!! <ng>

BBB

 

[Jim Smyth]

No financial loss at all. 5 more years of earning potential plus you dont tap your retirement monies for 5 years while you work to the age of 65 when Medicare and Social Security kicks in.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Fly-n-hi ... your math is fuzzy. Say you are 40 now and delay your upgrade to 45. In those 5 years you would lose 100k/yr (salary and B-fund) at my airline. I don't have a FV calculator handy at the moment, but at 45 you would have given up approx 700k by not upgrading. 700k over 20 yrs (age 45-65) at market 50 yr avg of 10% (actually 10.3%, but we'll round) return would yield approx $5.5 MILLION!

You will need to be paid in excess of $1 MILLION/yr by your airline from age 60-65 to come close to breaking even! You have been conned by the old geezers into believing this is a good thing for the younger pilots. Quite the opposite, this is a huge financial loss for the young pilots!! <ng>

BBB

What airline are you at?

You must be at the airline that pays really well. Here, the difference between an FO and a CA isn't 100k per year. its more like 40k-60k per year.

I'd say your math is fuzzy...no wait...hairy. I might even say it is highly suspect.

You didn't read my post very well.

You have completely missed the point. I'm not losing 5 years of anything. I'm gaining 5 years of pay. So what if it's FO pay?

You don't get it. If I upgrade now I will retire in 30 years. If the age limit goes to 65 and I upgrade in 5 years I will retire in 35 years. I will still spend the exact same amout of time as a Captain...30 years. So for you to say that you would loose 700k at your airline is totally false. You would still get it...just 5 years later.

Why you would want to give up those 5 years boggles me.

Your desire to upgrade as quickly as possible has clouded your judgement. Are the Captains you fly with really that bad?

If you want to retire at age 60 go ahead. In fact, if you're senior to me please do.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

What airline are you at?

You must be at the airline that pays really well. Here, the difference between an FO and a CA isn't 100k per year. its more like 40k-60k per year.

I'd say your math is fuzzy...no wait...hairy. I might even say it is highly suspect.

You didn't read my post very well.

You have completely missed the point. I'm not losing 5 years of anything. I'm gaining 5 years of pay. So what if it's FO pay?

You don't get it. If I upgrade now I will retire in 30 years. If the age limit goes to 65 and I upgrade in 5 years I will retire in 35 years. I will still spend the exact same amout of time as a Captain...30 years. So for you to say that you would loose 700k at your airline is totally false. You would still get it...just 5 years later.

Why you would want to give up those 5 years boggles me.

Your desire to upgrade as quickly as possible has clouded your judgement. Are the Captains you fly with really that bad?

If you want to retire at age 60 go ahead. In fact, if you're senior to me please do.

You seem a little S-L-O-W on the uptake, so I'll try again. If I want to retire at 60 (like MOST pilots), then I lose several $MILLION by delaying my upgrade to captain by 5 years. I thought I explained that pretty clearly in my last post.

As for why any normal human being might possibly consider doing something other than driving an aluminum tube all day for jollies ... <g> ... you need to get out more. Most of us do not have our egos and sense of self worth so heavily shaped by how we make a living. Perhaps you might consider helping another less fortunate human being(s) before you check out of this life, or go climb a glacier, kayak a river, take up surfing, just stare at the stars, or any one of a billion other activities. Your question itself leads me to believe you cannot view life outside a cockpit. That leads me to conclude you need to get out more. See, that was a pretty polite explanation.

BBB

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Upper Limit Is Full Social Security Age Whatever That May Be For Your Birthyear!

Second, if they raise the age limit to 65 (another abitrary number) what is too stop these guys from attepting to raise it to 70 or unlimited retirement age. I don't want to spend the whole night having to babysit some 65 or 70 yr. old geeser.


nightrider

S.65 is not limiting the age to 65!!!!!!! S.65 is saying that a PART 121 pilot can fly to the FULL RETIREMENT AGE OF SOCIAL SECURITY. A schedule has long been established by the Social Sec. Adm. to increase the age of full benefit.
Social Sec. is designed to have ALL contribute and only pay those that survive a short period of time and is based on a few years less than the current life expectance averages.

Those that are just entering the work force today won't recieve benefit until they are in their 70's as the age will is a political number that will increase as needed based on funding requirements. And they will still be flying jet airliners!!!

AGE TO RECEIVE FULL SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS
____________________________________________

YEAR OF BIRTH FULL RETIREMENT AGE

1937 or earlier 65
1938 65 and 2 months
1939 65 and 4 months
1940 65 and 6 months
1941 65 and 8 months
1942 65 and 10 months
1943-1954 66
1955 66 and 2 months
1956 66 and 4 months
1957 66 and 6 months
1958 66 and 8 months
1959 66 and 10 months
1960 and later 67

 

[Purpledog]

No financial loss at all. 5 more years of earning potential plus you dont tap your retirement monies for 5 years while you work to the age of 65 when Medicare and Social Security kicks in.

....and then you kick the bucket. There is more to life than hotels, crappy food, Jepp changes & visine.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

You seem a little S-L-O-W on the uptake, so I'll try again. If I want to retire at 60 (like MOST pilots), then I lose several $MILLION by delaying my upgrade to captain by 5 years. I thought I explained that pretty clearly in my last post.

As for why any normal human being might possibly consider doing something other than driving an aluminum tube all day for jollies ... <g> ... you need to get out more. Most of us do not have our egos and sense of self worth so heavily shaped by how we make a living. Perhaps you might consider helping another less fortunate human being(s) before you check out of this life, or go climb a glacier, kayak a river, take up surfing, just stare at the stars, or any one of a billion other activities. Your question itself leads me to believe you cannot view life outside a cockpit.

BBB

Wow, You're a jackass.

I don't give a rat's a$$ when you want to retire or how many millions you think you will lose if you retire 5 years early. Trust me, I will not lose a wink of sleep worrying about you. I can't emphasize enough how much I don't care about you.

"...you need to get out more."

I just destroyed your argument and this is your best response??? Besides, I am willing to bet I "get out more" than you do.

This is my future I'm talking about and your response to my concern and opinion is "you need to get out more"? Screw you.

"Most of us do not have our egos and sense of self worth so heavily shaped by how we make a living"

Huh??? Are you for real?? You don't even know me. What an idiotic comment. Sound like you're a bit judgmental. I hope that you don't make judgements about women or black people like you're doing with me.

"Perhaps you might consider helping another less fortunate human being(s) before you check out of this life, or go climb a glacier, kayak a river, take up surfing, just stare at the stars, or any one of a billion other activities."

Yeah, whatever you douchebag. Physically, I'd put you to shame. And I probably do more volunteer work than you do. My experience is that when fools like you make these comments they are in fact the ones who need to go help the less fortunate, climb a glacier, take up surfing, blah, blah, blah.

"Your question itself leads me to believe you cannot view life outside a cockpit."

No, it doesn't. You just can't think of anything more intelligent to say so you cast insults...and really lame ones....like a 12 year old.

Nice try you retard. Now go take a walk on the freeway.

 

[ivauir]

I don't give a rat's a$$ when you want to retire or how many millions you think you will lose if you retire 5 years early. Trust me, I will not lose a wink of sleep worrying about you. I can't emphasize enough how much I don't care about you.

I know I am quoting you out of context and that your comments are not directed at me, but I do feel like this is basically the message from the 50+ year olds to the under 40 crowd ... typical baby boomer mentality, as long as the change benefits them, then it must be fair.

When the law changes your career will become worth much more, and mine will just get longer. Yah for you!

 

[Spooky 1]

Wow, You're a jackass.

I don't give a rat's a$$ when you want to retire or how many millions you think you will lose if you retire 5 years early. Trust me, I will not lose a wink of sleep worrying about you. I can't emphasize enough how much I don't care about you.

"...you need to get out more."

I just destroyed your argument and this is your best response??? Besides, I am willing to bet I "get out more" than you do.

This is my future I'm talking about and your response to my concern and opinion is "you need to get out more"? Screw you.

"Most of us do not have our egos and sense of self worth so heavily shaped by how we make a living"

Huh??? Are you for real?? You don't even know me. What an idiotic comment. Sound like you're a bit judgmental. I hope that you don't make judgements about women or black people like you're doing with me.

"Perhaps you might consider helping another less fortunate human being(s) before you check out of this life, or go climb a glacier, kayak a river, take up surfing, just stare at the stars, or any one of a billion other activities."

Yeah, whatever you douchebag. Physically, I'd put you to shame. And I probably do more volunteer work than you do. My experience is that when fools like you make these comments they are in fact the ones who need to go help the less fortunate, climb a glacier, take up surfing, blah, blah, blah.

"Your question itself leads me to believe you cannot view life outside a cockpit."

No, it doesn't. You just can't think of anything more intelligent to say so you cast insults...and really lame ones....like a 12 year old.

Nice try you retard. Now go take a walk on the freeway.

Hey BBB..........I don't think this guy likes you. He just doesn't know what a warm friendly kinda guy you really are. Age 65 will work, trust me.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Hey BBB..........I don't think this guy likes you. He just doesn't know what a warm friendly kinda guy you really are. Age 65 will work, trust me.

Hey Spooky! Like Rush says ... "I'm just a lovable little fuzzball"! Gotta say though, I've seen tougher skins on a pinot noir grape!

BBB

 

[Spooky 1]

For all of you smart guys out there, think about this. Your company's B fund was set up because you couldn't legally work from 60 to 65 (supposedly the most lucrative earning years of you life). Now that you will be able to work until 65, the companies will figure out rather quickly that you don't need that B fund anymore and they can save even more $Billions by not contributing to your B fund anymore. The law of unintended consequences strikes again (although I am sure that managament knew this all the time).

Champ42272

Champ..........not sure there are anymore B funds around this industry anymore. maybe over there where you work, but that must be an exception.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

A lot of pilots are against raising the age past 60, mostly citing it will take them 5 (or whatever) more years to get the flying job they want.

If age 60 is better, why should you have to wait to get that job?

What is keeping congress from changing the age? If a younger retirement age is better, why not 55? Why not 50? Why not 45? Why not 40? Why not 35? Why not 30?

Using most of the anti-60 people's logic, younger is better. So, I ask again, why not mandatory retirement at age 30? If younger is better, 30 would be TONS better than 60. Think how fast you could get that job?

Now, if you don't think forced retirement at age 30 is better than 60, your whole arguement for keeping the age at 60 falls apart.

It is illogical to say 60 is better, but not support 30.

So, which is it? A drive to make pilots retire at age 30, or are you going to stop age discrimination and lets pilots fly until they want to retire, as long as they are physically able.

Cliff
GRB

PS-This is the same arguement I've had with some people who say the speed limit should be 55 instead of 70, because slower is safer. If slower is safer, why stop at 55? Wouldn't a national speed limit of 5 mpg be TONS safer than 55?

When I explain this, the "slower is better" crowd all say that 5 mph is too slow, and we wouldn't get anywhere. EXACTLY. Now if you're argueing that the speed limit should be lower to save fuel, then a speed limit of about 45 mph makes total sense, as there is an exact speed that would save the most fuel nationwide.

"Slower is better" doesn't cut it. Neither does "Younger is better."

 

[Purpledog]

I thought the whole reason to get into this job, and it is a job, Skippy, was to work less, get paid more. What has happened to the logic of the profession? You all dumbfound me. At 55, if my butt isn't firmly planted in the sand with a fruity cocktail, I have done something seriously wrong. Repeat after me, work less, paid more, work less, paid more, work less, paid more..............

Your question itself leads me to believe you cannot view life outside a cockpit.

That about sums it up for many of those I have run across.