my experience at Delta Connection DCA

[ucf_motorcycle]

I registered for this board because of the huge amount of posts about DCA and I wanted to let people know what it is like there from someone who recently attended. First let me tell you that I started there with 0 time and completed private, instrument, and commercial. I then disenrolled because of financial reasons which I will discuss later.

Here are the positives:
Knowledgable instructors who really know there stuff.
Nice facility with a learning resource center that has free tutors (students getting their CFI's) to help you and give you tips.
Large amount of instructors about 1 for every two students.
In house written and flight exams.
SFB is great airport for instruction and surrounding airports are also excellent.

Here are the negatives:
COST. The price quoted in your contract rarely comes close to what you actually pay. I am sure there are some who paid the contract price but they got lucky by having instructors who are actually concerend with how much you pay.
I personally was quoted $46,000 for private, instrument, comm, multi, and CFI. After 5 months, 180hrsTT and $43,000 i completed the first three. I estimate it would cost me and additional 20-25K to finish multi and CFI at DCA. THis figure is without books uniform or any other personal equiptment.
You may say to yourself that I must have been a below average student, but that was not the case. The fact is the average cost of DCA is more like 70-80K and i have heard of 90-100k. This is the current prices. A few years ago it was definetely cheaper.

There prices on aircraft rental look to be competitive but they make their money in other ways for example instruction time is $56 per hr about twice what other places cost. In addition for every flight you take even before you turn the key you were already charged .5 for instruction time. Any ground instrtuction your CFI charges you for is also $56. Now this is where you save money with some CFI's, who give you free instruction but the Academy frowns on it. Also the simulator time which is a required minimum to get through the course cost nearly as much as the real plane. And another wonderful device they have is a PCATD which is a CPU with a yoke and pedals and an old flight sim program which they charge you over $100hr to use with the instructor in addition to the .5 flight briefing.

Now I would agree with $56 per hour if the CFI's actually made a decent living but they are all making $10per hour and getting paid maybe 25-30 hrs a week even though they are there all day and night.

I had to stop going because I budgeted myself acording to the $46000 estimate. I feel that the contract price is a scheme to get students to attend. I think DCA is charging too much money and promising the world to students. I guess I should say that I am currently filing a lawsuit against DCA for unlawful and deceptive trade practices. If anyone esle has similar experience with DCA give me an email at [email protected] my lawyer would love to make it class action.

 

[CUEBOAT]

I hate when I here about a school "scaming" students. Anway goodluck with your lawsuit. If you are going to try to advance with your aviation career. check out Ari-Ben Aviator in Fort Pierce,FL. The planes are old but they get the job done. Also definatly the best deal in the country.

 

[350DRIVER]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune... This is a major problem that often goes undetected at some of the larger flight schools until one is well into the training program where it is then too late to turn back or pull out. I know very little little about the DCA set up but it has been proven to get many grads to Comair at much much lower flight times than the competitive minimums IF you make it to that point ("if" is the key). This is reason enough for many to take the gamble for a shot at the highest paying regional airline in this industry present day. I think Sharon recently said that those coming in from the outside needed either 3000TT or more or have previous 121 time, not a very easy task for the lower time guys out there who are trying to get that initial break. I think many are sold on this program because they see the gold waiting for them upon completion of the program, easier said than done though for many. I would be very interested in hearing the actual hard number of people who start this program from nothing and who actually make it to Comair. I assume it is not overly easy since I have met a few in this industry that did the majority of their training at DCA and who never had the opportunity to even get the "promised" interview at Comair for different reasons.


I personally recommend the Mesa Airlines Pilot Development program (MAPD) to all those who ask me for advice and guidance, it works and it is proven. It is by far the "quickest" time from 0 hours to the right seat of a airliner, hands down. It is very intense and standardized but if you can make it through, then you are in a very good position upon completion of the program.


good luck to you..


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[ucf_motorcycle]

My problem is not even the promises about getting you a job with the airlines. I knew that no matter what they say its going to be hard and competitive. My issue with DCA was that they straight lie to student coming in about the "average cost" of attended quoting 46K, when it actually costs about 80K on average. Some more proof of this is that Key Alternative Loan which is the company that most DCA students use to finance their training lends 80K and will lend up to 100K obviously because thats what it actually costs to attend.

 

[350DRIVER]

My problem is not even the promises about getting you a job with the airlines. I knew that no matter what they say its going to be hard and competitive. My issue with DCA was that they straight lie to student coming in about the "average cost" of attended quoting 46K, when it actually costs about 80K on average. Some more proof of this is that Key Alternative Loan which is the company that most DCA students use to finance their training lends 80K and will lend up to 100K obviously because thats what it actually costs to attend.

I can understand your frustrations but keep in mind no flight school will promise in writing what the exact amount of your training from start to finish will be, alot depends on the person. This will vary quite a bit considering that no two students are alike and they don't progress to "standards" in the same amount of time. Most schools/programs that I am familiar with will only ballpark the figure $$ (dollar amount). Obviously there are some exceptions like Airman Flight School where I obtained the CFI/CFII since they don't charge per hour, for instructor, ground school, etc, etc, they simply bill you for the "guaranteed course" that they are selling you regardless of how many hours it takes you. I think these set ups are extremely nice and it allows you the flexibility to not worry about any "hidden" costs or fees since there are none.


I don't think it is illegal for a school to quote 46K unless it was in writing that this is a "guaranteed course" for that dollar amount. Unfortunately I think you are going to have few if any options when you have your day in court. I do wish you luck however and may your career desires and dreams come true. As I have previously said, one must proceed with caution and understand that in this gamble there is a chance that the worst case scenario may come true when it is too late to back out.

This "average" cost that is being quoted is obviously going to be on the low end for marketing purposes and it surely sounds better to most versus the high end amount. I strongly suggest to the people I know that they speak personally to former and current students of program/flight school X and see what the actual costs/fees are in reality. Deceptive advertising is nothing new in this industry, been around for many years and ain't going away anytime soon..

chalk it up as a learning experience...

buyer beware...


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[COEX-FO]

I personally was quoted $46,000 for private, instrument, comm, multi, and CFI. After 5 months, 180hrsTT and $43,000 i completed the first three. I estimate it would cost me and additional 20-25K to finish multi and CFI at DCA. .

That is totally insane!

Considering this market for pilots, go to medical/dental/law school and earn 10x what you will as a pilot! Then buy your own small jet and fly around all you like! You will be millions ahead by time you retire!

I invested less than 15K in all my ratings (COMM-INST-MULTI, CFI-II-MEI). I'm not sure things have doubled since 1990 when I did this but there has got to be a less expensive way to get your ratings!

I've been at COEX coming up on 4 years next month. Last year my W-2 was $27.000. Should have gone to law school!

 

[LGAPilot]

Ucf_motorcycle, I totally agree with your assessment of DCA. I was there for my Commercial Multi and CFI’s in ’94, back when it was still Comair Academy. As you stated, the instruction was top notch but the cost was outrageous. I went for just 4 ratings and still went over-budget. What I found most disconcerting was watching some of the mid-lifers leave Comair totally broke without all their ratings. I was 22 when I attended and guys in their 30’s seemed old to me at the time (I’m in my 30’s now There were several thirty-something’s who’d given up lucrative careers to follow a dream, only to leave mid-way through their training with empty pockets.

About a year later, a friend of mine (who I’d met at Comair) got me a job at a pilot factory in OKC (the owner/crook is now in prison) . This place could not have been more opposite Comair in terms of facilities and structure. But it was cheap…they offered fixed price training…literally! You paid one price and flew until you passed your check ride, regardless of how many hours it took. I used to tell my students (the ones who spoke English) that the quality of their instruction would depend on two factors: 1) The individual instructor you had and 2) The amount of effort you put in studying on your own. Looking back, dollar for dollar, I think these little one-price-fits-all mom-and-pop flight schools are they way to go…but only if you are HIGHLY motivated and prepared to study your butt off. I did the best I could when teaching ground school but I always encouraged my students to bring a list of questions to their next lesson.

In summary, based on my experience 10 years ago, DCA is the way to go if you have a money tree in your backyard. That being said, find out what schools stick to their price quotes…or better yet, GURANTEE their price, as this pilot factory did, and go prepared to study hard. You won’t be spoon fed, but you will save tons of $$$ and in the end, you’ll get your ratings.

LGAPilot

 

[SMOE]

This sounds like standard DCA. It doesn't surprise me that instruction went up to $56/hr and the instructor pay hasn't gone up. It was $48/hr when I attended last year for my CFI/CFII. Overall I dropped about $19K and actually finished UNDER estimates. Still haven't figured out how I did that. But, the first $5k went to the profiency course that everyone with outside tickets has to go through before they can start CFI. Very good refresher course but the price was pretty steep.

I guess the only guarantee DCA or any of the big license mills back is that there is 100% chance they will separate you from your money. What you get out of it in return is entirely up to you.

Good luck with the rest of your training. You may want to consider Falcon Flight Center, co-located at Starport FBO on the other side of the field. Its Part 61 but the instructors are excellent, the rental costs are about half of what DCA charges, and the atmosphere is much more relaxed. The emphasis is on the student having an enjoyable, worry free experience.

 

[SDCFI]

Re: Re: my experience at Delta Connection DCA

I've been at COEX coming up on 4 years next month. Last year my W-2 was $27.000. Should have gone to law school! [/B]

That right there is F-in pathetic. I should take home about 20,000 this year as a 2nd year 99 capt at AMF, and I wasn't turbine qualified until mid feb. My best friend is in the same boat, he's also a 4th year COEX F/O so I hope you guys ream Ream and get a killer contract.

 

[huncowboy]

I personally was quoted $46,000 for private, instrument, comm, multi, and CFI. After 5 months, 180hrsTT and $43,000 i completed the first three. I estimate it would cost me and additional 20-25K to finish multi and CFI at DCA. THis figure is without books uniform or any other personal equiptment.
You may say to yourself that I must have been a below average student, but that was not the case. The fact is the average cost of DCA is more like 70-80K and i have heard of 90-100k. This is the current prices. A few years ago it was definetely cheaper.

70-80k seems a bit high for the average though. Too bad people do not care to check out the satellites where you can also get a degree. They are cheaper. The only downside is that the instructors can't seem to log as much time as in Sanford.

I have spent so far around 33-35ish (including everything but Wendy’s and gas) and I am done with almost 1/2 of the CFI. I will be done after 40ish with all except MEI which only comes later. Again, I am not in Sanford which is more expensive but you also get it done much faster. However I have seen some spending a 4 bedroom home with a pool before leaving. But all those persons are walking legends around here if you know what I mean. I could never understand why it takes hundreds of hours for one to realize how much it will be at the end, or to realize the inevitable. Most of the CFIs I know, who did it in Sanford, paid around 50k + MEI. I think that is used to be the average. I don’t know what it is right now but not 70-80k for able people.

IMHO after your private you should have realized how much over you would be. After my private I calculated I have spent 30% over the quote (again at the satellite). That 30% remained 30% for the rest of the courses. Actually I could have saved about 3k on my commercial and about 1k on the private had I not run dry in the last moment right before the ride both times.

Soooo I guess I won't sign up on that lawsuit but I agree it can be done cheaper, and I also agree DCA is not for everyone, but it definitely works for many and yet I have to see superman flying in the pattern.

 

[bobbysamd]

Comair v. other schools

Originally posted by 350DRIVER
I think many are sold on [Comair] because they see the gold waiting for them upon completion of the program, easier said than done though for many. I would be very interested in hearing the actual hard number of people who start this program from nothing and who actually make it to Comair. I assume it is not overly easy since I have met a few in this industry that did the majority of their training at DCA and who never had the opportunity to even get the "promised" interview at Comair for different reasons.

Please bear with me because I've written this story a number of times. I feel it should be repeated in light of the current context.

I interviewed for an instructing job at Comair in 1991. I traveled two-thousand miles on my nickel for this interview. After traveling this distance, my time on the property must have totaled three hours max. Maybe twenty minutes with the Chief Instructor and an hour flight with this older, tired curmudgeon in an older, tired 152. I suspect both were survivors of when the school was known as Airline Aviation Academy.

I remember well how some student was taxiing in with his landing light on. The man I was with saw it and went ballistic. He steps into the taxiway and starts carrying on, "TURN IT OFF!!!!! TURN IT OFF!!!" I was not impressed. Is that how Comair students are always treated?

I was not hired. Ya know how I found out? By silence. I was never sent a rejection letter or even given a phone call. The Chief Instructor surely knew that I had traveled from Prescott, Arizona to attend the interview because he had my resume. Granted, no one likes to receive rejection letters, but not sending one to me, especially after I had traveled a long distance at great expense, was simply rude, inconsiderate, discourteous and unprofessional.

And that's how CAA (DCA) "impressed" me. I realize fully that things can change in thirteen years, but I doubt much has changed in this regard at Comair. My point is a job interview can provide a valuable glimpse into a company's culture. The way I was treated during my interview and thereafter was a complete turn-off to CAA.

I interviewed for an instructing job at FlightSafety in Vero three months later. My experience was far different. I was there for four days. The school rolled out the red carpet for me. It put me up in one of the bungalows on campus. My interview consisted of writtens and a sim on Thursday, a flight and an interview with the Center Manager on Friday, nothing on Saturday, and an interview (and job offer) with the Chief Instructor on Sunday. I was impressed.

I will say, objectively, that in the nearly three years I've been on this board that I've seen far more negative than positive about Comair and very little negative about FSI. I have seen virtually nothing negative about MAPD, below:

I personally recommend the Mesa Airlines Pilot Development program (MAPD) to all those who ask me for advice and guidance, it works and it is proven. It is by far the "quickest" time from 0 hours to the right seat of a airliner, hands down. It is very intense and standardized but if you can make it through, then you are in a very good position upon completion of the program.

I instructed at MAPD in 1993. I second these comments. The program works, but so does Comair for many people. "The interview" at Mesa is not promised. It essentially yours to lose as long as you mind your Ps and Qs, unlike Comair, which seems to be very much of an uphill battle, no matter how compliant you are with the program.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think many are sold on this program because they see the gold waiting for them upon completion of the program, easier said than done though for many.

I'm virtually certain of that premise. I visited the former "Comair Academy" when I was choosing where I would take my CFI training. It was far more expensive, but on the other hand, with 20/20 hindsight, I'd probably be flying for Comair right now had I found a way to bear the cost and instruct every day. My visit was in the spring of 2000, during sun n fun where I spent the following day.

Good luck with your suit. You will need testimony from students who felt the possibility of an airline career at such-and-such a price was emphasized. Karen never gave me that pitch, but that may be because I had all my ratings but the instructor certs.

 

[Bryan D]

I had a similar 'unpleasant' experience at Comair Academy (May 01' - June 02'). My story is long and best told over a few beers. What I observed is this, the instructors at CAA are on a power trip and they can and will make you or break you (they broke me $23,000. spent, no additional ratings), the 'management' (Ms Piggy Lips Susan Burrell) don't give a sh** as long as the money keeps flowing, students (customers) are like buses if you miss one another will be along shortly. Comair/Delta Academy is about money, plain and simple, if they turn out a few pilots thats all the better.

 

[working_pilot]

Sometimes you get what you pay for. I left DCA after my multi rating about 18 months ago. 3 of the people from my original class have airline interviews this month, all with under 1100 hours. I currently have 2800 hours and can't even get an interview anywhere. I did save about 20K on training, however what good does it do for me know.

 

[jaxpilot]

I went to a satellite DCA location from private thru commercial and I will tell you it is NOT cheaper than sanford. The prices are all the same. I finally got smart after commercial and got my CMEL and CFI tickets elsewhere. I believe I made the right choice and I believe a lot of the people that were instructors at DCA and got hired at the regionals will find out later that they missed out on a lot of aviation by going straight from a PA44 to a jet, I mean what else is there after that? It doesnt take a super pilot to be an instructor/new airline hiree at DCA, just a lot of money and a lot of vaseline. Dont cry when your making $20,000 a year with $600 a month student loan payments.

 

[huncowboy]

I went to a satellite DCA location from private thru commercial and I will tell you it is NOT cheaper than sanford. The prices are all the same. I finally got smart after commercial and got my CMEL and CFI tickets elsewhere. I believe I made the right choice and I believe a lot of the people that were instructors at DCA and got hired at the regionals will find out later that they missed out on a lot of aviation by going straight from a PA44 to a jet, I mean what else is there after that? It doesnt take a super pilot to be an instructor/new airline hiree at DCA, just a lot of money and a lot of vaseline. Dont cry when your making $20,000 a year with $600 a month student loan payments.

JAX may not be cheaper but Broward is indeed. I am not sure how the college makes DCA do it but it is a fact. People don't look around, including yourself... guess who to blame?

Regardless, if you come to any big school and can't figure out things within 2 weeks than:

A) You're are ummm... well... not that very smart and we will see you soon on this and other boards crying a river that you couldn't pass your instrument after 200 hours and now you are ready to sue everyone within a 5 SM of Sanford and "there" dogs.

or

B) You don't care for money, perhaps because you are anywhere from 18 to 22 and paps signed for it anyways so whazzup with 50-60-70k? Thaz a lot or what? The other day I overheard a new student explaining how he went for the max loan but it is ok since he will pay it back on the regional salary within 2 years. Right there I flatlined. Then the conversation moved on how he can't stand studying procedures and flows but overall flying is cool though. Typical 18 years old fresh out of high school, I wasn't any better. Welcome to real life.

But whatever... and also don't cry when you make 20k logging twin time on one engine en-route to the Bahamas trying to figure out which leg is the dead one... this or the other way you will pay. We accept: $, risk, or time or any combination... Take your pick and get in line... or lost.

 

[jaxpilot]

yeah I admit it was my fault. As I said I "got smart" after my commercial. Unfortunately some never do.

 

[Ailerongirl]

Question....

I've heard many stories about how DCA will quote say $45K, and the student cost actally end up being $95K (I'm just approximating folks), and that being the average to get done.

So, how many DCA students *do* finish up and only pay $45K? Do they have an accurate, consistant number that they can point to? And are these students that come in with 0 time? Basically I'm just wondering how they justify their numbers based of all the stories that I've heard...

 

[cforst513]

my quote in january was $65,000 for 'tuition', plus for living expenses, rent, and various other costs, shot the total up to $85,000. then i heard about mazzei flying service in fresno (www.flymfs.com) and it will be $38,600 for PPL-CFII, housing included (add about $2000 or so for food, car payments, etc). DCA to me is a joke. i wasn't impressed with the students i talked to, the CFI's, or Vern Antrim, my salesm--- i mean my 'admissions counselor'.

there were other older people with me on my tour. one guy just quit his job in Utah, and he and his wife had already put a deposit down for an apartment for them and their 3 kids. this was all before they even visited the school. in fact, their visit coincided with their moving in day. she doesn't have a job, he's not going to work. i hope they make it ok, for their kids' sake...

 

[Traderd]

Is DCA an operational entity of Delta/Comair, or is it independent with interview deals for its graduates?