My CFI checkride...

[greyhound]

Hopefully this thread will benefit someone out there!

Just did myCFI checkride but it was a bust!!
This was an initial checkride in a twin.
Ground portion went smoothly.
1. Know Instructor's responsabilities(endorsements for all certificates/ratings). This is obviously found on Ac61-65. Also know chp.8 of the instructor's handbook.
2.Know def. of learning, levels of learning,principles of learning.
3.Know human factors, why people forget?
4.know barriers of communication/ what is effective critique?
5.Know the teaching process.(Preparation,presentation,application,review and evaluation)
6.Be ready to teach any technical subject area. I got two;weight & balance and factors of Vmc. Easy.
I had lesson plans for every subject but they are not actually required according to my examiner. I couldn't imagine doing the ride without them however.
7.Be ready to show airworthiness of your aircraft from the aircraft logs. Find the required checks. (Annual/100hr/ELT/Trspx/Pitot static/compliance with AD's)

Total time 5 hours for gound portion. This included paperwork(45min)

Flight portion was actually fine except one thing.
I was demonstrating the maneuvers, not actually "teaching them."
Did Vmc demo,steep turns(I had to critique his),teaching constant a/s climbs and descents, power on,power off stalls.
Turns about a point,engine failure in-flight, shut down and airstart.
Short field landings and engine failure after takeoff.
Total Flight time 1.6hrs.

Basically I have to talk more during the flight. I was demonstrating what I was doing, but I also had to give the "WHY" of what I'm doing.

The knowledge is in me, I just had to speak up.
Hope others benefit from this experience. Teach, teach, teach!!
Think like an instructor..
Re-test is next week, I'll post my experience

 

[unreal]

Sorry to hear about the ride. But I'm confused on what he actually busted you on. Maybe it's just my style, but I like to leave all the "whys" for ground lessons. I really only talk about what it is I'm physically doing in the plane. The airplane is a terrible classroom for theory.

But hey, that's me.

 

[greyhound]

Exactly...

That was my idea also.
In my defense I explained to him that I would have covered the objective and purpose on the ground.

But overall it was my lack of teaching ability in flight. I need to work on teaching the maneuvers, not just demonstrating it. Confusing huh!!

 

[bobbysamd]

CFI practical bust

But overall it was my lack of teaching ability in flight. I need to work on teaching the maneuvers, not just demonstrating it. Confusing huh!!

Not in the least. You taught a lot in your opening post. The lesson you taught is that CFI applicants should never stop teaching until the examiner hands them their wet Temporaries and has them sign it. At that point, it's okay to stop "teaching."

It was a good learning experience for all. Good luck on the recheck. Keep us updated.

 

[FracCapt]

What exactly did he bust you on? More than one thing, or just one specific item? I think it should state on your letter of disapproval what he busted you on.

 

[greyhound]

Short field landings
turns about a point.

 

[tom1178]

It's been less than a yr since i took my cfi ride but some of the details from it have still disappeared....however one thing i do remember is the concern i had for whether or not i would be able to not just fly the maneuvers but teach them at the same time. During my training...I recall that it is dificult to "simulate" actually being up there with a student who knows nothing and having to explain step by step every single thing that is happening.....Apparently I did a good job though, i can't even count how many times the examiner said "ok, ok, i know you know this let's move on" while i was explaining how something worked or how something was done. Good luck next week, just be relaxed and explain even the SIMPLE things......if you are thinking about it you should be talking about it.

 

[jimtrustycfi]

Checkride

Spending 7 hours in a testing mode is what really gets you. It's almost impossible to be the perfect Pilot/Instructor under those conditions but he left you an out for next time. (Two Simple Maneuvers) Request the same inspector and expect to do only those maneuvers mentioned on the Salmon. You'll do fine.
Take a couple of rides with a friendly CFI and let them wring you out. Might even consider taking a NEW Private up for a critique. I'd mention all the training to the examiner too. Let us know how you do. Oh, the record for CFI failures is 9. All with different examiners. Jim

 

[FracCapt]

Short field landings
turns about a point.

Luckily, for the retake, you should only have to demonstrate those two maneuvers. Be sure that during your turns around a point, you explain bank angles required, and the reason for varying bank angles(the wind, of course) required to maintain a specific ground track. Be sure you know EXACTLY what the wind is doing, so you are explaining it properly during the maneuver.

On your short field landings, be sure to explain that speed control is extremely important, and if you are not going to make your touchdown point - go around. DO NOT fly on the back side of the power curve and drag it in with lots of power just above stall speed. I had several CFI candidates that did that, and I would pull the engine on them. If you don't react quick enough, you stall(of course, I wouldn't allow that to occur)......if you react quickly enough, you are still on the back side of the L/D curve, so your sink rate will be quite high and you will not have much airspeed(if any) for a flare.

Brief both maneuvers as well as you possibly can on the ground before the flight. Don't ever stop talking for more than a couple seconds during the maneuvers. If you are silent for more than 2-3 seconds, you're doing something wrong. Always point out the ground track, bank angle, position of the intended landing point in the windscreen, etc..

Good luck!

 

[greyhound]

Thanks...

I'll take everyone's advice.......

This is my first failure ever.

Hopefully my last.

 

[Tinstaafl]

The difference between 'demonstrating' & 'teaching':

Demonstrate (poorly): "See? I'm keeping the a/c within X altitude / Y speed."
.
Teach (with a demo): "The pitch attitude has changed by (xx deg) nose down as shown on the AI / cowling vs horizon. We've now lost XX feet. Correct this by pulling on the column to pitch to XX deg NU. Speed is reducing. Correct by adding at least YY in.HG / ft.lbs. Confirm altitude etc etc etc. Your turn." Now observe, wait for the student to correct errors. If s/he doesn't notice an error & correct then point out the error & wait for him/her to correct. If no correction then suggest that one is needed. If still no correction then instruct to make a correction, etc etc etc.

 

[flyifrvfr]

Greyhound, I am sorry to hear about your bust. I completed my initial CFI checkride in march 04. My oral exam lasted just 3 1/2 hours to complete. The first 1/2 hour was paperwork and at 9:30 am the inspector asked his first FOI question. I had alot of FOI questions. At 12:00 pm we broke for a one hour lunch. After lunch, I showed the inspector that the two planes I brought for the ride were airworthy and was asked if I was ready to fly. During lunch, I checked the weather and we still had a 90 degree crosswind at 30 knots.I spent 1/2 trying to convince the inspector that a 30 knot 90 degree crosswind is not good conditions to take the test.

The inspector asked me if I ever landed in a crosswind like that and I told him I have on several occasions. I told him that if I begin the flight portion of the test, that I am telling him that I could fly the aircraft to the PTS standards. I knew I couldn't. We postponed and came back a week later. We took off and the inspector said, " lets begin our first task, teach me slow flight." As I began to explain why we do the maneuver, he stopped me and said, " don't go into theory, just explain how and demonstrate."

So, long story short, you may never know what an inspector likes unless you go the extra mile and explain a maeuver beginning with what, why, and how. Let the inspector tell you which one of those to leave out.

 

[greyhound]

For those still interested....

I passed my CFI checkride!

I talked more and taught the maneuvers that I had to complete.

All in all pretty simple this time.

But checkrides really do depend on giving the examiner what THEY want to hear instead of what the FAA thinks is right from their manuals.

Oh well....

 

[johnpeace]

Awesome man, good work!

From what I gather, busting the initial CFI checkride on the first attempt is pretty much par for the course.

Congratulations!

 

[bobbysamd]

I'm still interested . . .

I passed my CFI checkride!

I talked more and taught the maneuvers that I had to complete.

All in all pretty simple this time.

But checkrides really do depend on giving the examiner what THEY want to hear instead of what the FAA thinks is right from their manuals.

Oh well....

Congratulations! Now you, too, are another unemployed flight instructor.

And, you're absolutely right about giving examiners what they want to hear. Take it from someone else who knows. Remember that when you send your first students for their practicals.

Good luck with your students.

 

[Tinstaafl]

That's excellent news. Congratulations!

 

[greyhound]

Yup...

Thanks!!

 

[Goose Egg]

My ears are burning...

Hey all,

Interesting thread. Had a similar experience, except with the CFII. But that ride was pretty controversial, and I still have a sneaking suspicion that I was the warm body that the examiner used to pad his pass/fail ratio. It was nearly 9 months ago and I now have that rating in-hand but I'm still a little chapped. I wise man once told me that anyone can fail any checkride on any given day. You and I were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Good news is that the number of times it takes to pass a checkride is essentially meaningless in all contexts other than financial.

-Goose

 

[Goose Egg]

One more thing...

One other thing that I forgot to add yesterday is the reason that any of us can fail a checkride at any given time; there is no such thing as a perfect checkride. During every checkride, everyone will commit a "bustable" offense. Whether the examiner actually calls us on it depends on many factors, including but not limited to the severity of the offense, the mood that the examiner happens to be in that day, whether the examiner needs a bust for his/her record, how well the applicant has done on their oral and flying up to that point, the examiner's opinion of the signing-off CFI, and so on and so forth. Ahh, the politics of checkrides. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

Good news: If you do happen to bust, you will most likely be given a cake-walk-esque retest, probably only on the tasks that you failed. The point has been made. The examiner has nothing to gain by busting you again. So other than the financial hit of the aircraft rental, additional training, and possible retest fee, a busted checkride is really no big deal

 

[acaTerry]

During every checkride, everyone will commit a "bustable" offense. Whether the examiner actually calls us on it depends on many factors, including but not limited to the severity of the offense, the mood that the examiner happens to be in that day, whether the examiner needs a bust for his/her record, how well the applicant has done on their oral and flying up to that point, the examiner's opinion of the signing-off CFI, and so on and so forth. Ahh, the politics of checkrides. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here goose. The PTS is clear cut and there is no way that you fail if you meet the standards, but the examiner can fail you if they want. This has nothing to do with someone committing a "busatble" offense. It is simply a matter of keeping the CFI attrition high. I for one remember my CFI initial checkride 11 years ago. Perfect. I did everything in standards without even the smallest of deviation (the proverbial "good day" in the airplane), but still failed. Why? Because I performed a go around. The examiner wanted a no flap soft field landing on the numbers from a short approach. This is not even in the PTS. I did not like the way it was going so I went around and he failed me for "lack of instructional knowledge". When my CFI asked what that was supposed to mean, he was told that instructional knowledge means being able to do any manauver or combination of maneuvers perfect on the first try. Did I fail my ride? No, he failed me. So I had to pay another 225 bucks and do one landing.
While I agree with you that anyone can get busted on a checkride at the examiners whim, I disagree that every checkride has a bustable offense. If it does, then everyone in the world should be failed on every checkride. You meet PTS standards or you don't.
Fly Safe
Terry

 

[Goose Egg]

Terry,

You've been in the game longer than I have, and so I'll have to defer to your greater knowledge on the subject. Perhaps not all checkrides have a "bustable" offense. But speaking from my own experience, I certainly could have failed several of my checkrides if the examiner was being a stickler. Although, I had a very similar experience to your story on the CFII ride. Maybe it was a good experience for me to have that kind of wake up call.

So here's a question for you: If you did actually fly a perfect checkride per PTS, what was the real reason that you busted? I mean, what do you think that the examiner's problem was? Was he just having a bad day, or what? Or was he just normally ill-disposed?

Anyway, darned if I ever send any students to that examiner. He took his shots, now I'll take mine.

Goose

 

[minitour]

...Anyway, **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed if I ever send any students to my CFI-I examiner.

Goose

I guess that's one way to stick it to 'em if they bust ya for something stupid...imagine the look on their face after they hand ya the temp....touche.

-mini

PS Not to threadjack, but I hear so much crap about the CFI ride being a bust all the time, just wondering if anyone ever had their CFI ride go crappy and not pink? Kinda wondering if it goes both ways or if it only seems to bust when not deservedly so.

 

[pilotman2105]

PS Not to threadjack, but I hear so much crap about the CFI ride being a bust all the time, just wondering if anyone ever had their CFI ride go crappy and not pink? Kinda wondering if it goes both ways or if it only seems to bust when not deservedly so.

I didn't feel that my CFI ride went well at all. According to the examiner, I didn't do 8's on pylons correctly, didn't perform the go around correctly, and wasn't able to recite the hour requirements for a private pilot certificate from memory.

There were a few other things. Given this, and in comparison with other people's stories of their rides, I would have thought that I would have busted.

Oh well, I still passed and it is still quite an accomplishment that I'm proud of. Like everyone else has said, it is one of the most satisfying checkrides after you complete it.

 

[flyer172r]

I think there are two key things to remember about CFI checkrides:

1. Last I heard, 65% of applicants bust their first time

2. Don't shut up during the flight part, unless the tower is giving you a traffic advisory. I don't think you have to go into the "why" of stuff, but at least go into the "how". In other words, say what you're doing as you're doing it.

 

[minitour]

pilotman: Thanks for the info and congratulations on the pass!

 

[acaTerry]

Hi again Goose,

"Lack of Instructional Knowledge" was the call. He said whether the maneuver was in the PTS or not (which it wasn't), that performing a go around displayed lack of instructional knowledge.. In other words, if you decide to go around, you are not proficient as an instructor.

Obviously, my instructor was ticked. I think being that this examiner was a satff examiner at another local school, I was a figure for attrition.
Anyway, good to hear you got it. Now just be careful.

BTW...the examiner is dead. I heard he crashed a plane.

 

[Goose Egg]

That sucks. Sort of ironic that the examiner would eventually buy the farm.

Goose