Multi-engine training platform

[Blur]

Anyone out there use a Cessna 303, Cessna 340A or Seneca II for multi-engine training? If so how are they to insure and do the engines make TBO in a training environment? Can students qualify to rent them following a checkride? About 30% of our rental are training flights, the rest are rentals for trips.

We currently operate a Piper Seminole, but have had a terrible time keeping it in service. It has been in service a total of about 5 weeks since September. Just came out of a fresh overhaul in April and we've been thorough 6 carburetors since…3 of them in 3 days.

I'm looking for an alternate multi-engine training aircraft. We operated a Twin Comanche in the past, but the insurance company wanted us to replace it because of its age...so we purchased a Seminole about four years ago.

Insurance won’t insure an Apache or Aztec because of their age. I'm skeptical of the Duchess because of their tendency to also spend the majority of their life in the hangar. We seem to running out of options….

 

[brokeflyer]

tell your insurance company to do their job....and accept some of the risk.

 

[Lynxman]

Anyone out there use a Cessna 303, Cessna 340A or Seneca II for multi-engine training? If so how are they to insure and do the engines make TBO in a training environment? Can students qualify to rent them following a checkride? About 30% of our rental are training flights, the rest are rentals for trips.

We currently operate a Piper Seminole, but have had a terrible time keeping it in service. It has been in service a total of about 5 weeks since September. Just came out of a fresh overhaul in April and we've been thorough 6 carburetors since…3 of them in 3 days.

I'm looking for an alternate multi-engine training aircraft. We operated a Twin Comanche in the past, but the insurance company wanted us to replace it because of its age...so we purchased a Seminole about four years ago.

Insurance won’t insure an Apache or Aztec because of their age. I'm skeptical of the Duchess because of their tendency to also spend the majority of their life in the hangar. We seem to running out of options….

Where are you located? I need to rent a seminole. Secondly it sounds as if either MX is not doing a good job or that your renters are treating this plane like garbage. There is no reason to replace the carbs that often unless they were junk to begin with. My old flight school had fairly good dispatch reliability on their seminole. Not sure on the duchess im looking at renting one of those in a month or so, but they seem reliable provided their taken care of and mx os up to date.

 

[CaptSeth]

Turbocharged engines + Training = lose lots of money

 

[Blur]

Bought the airplane for four years ago with 3200TT and here is where we stand today...

First problem was poor quality fuel pressure transducers made by Piper. At $600 a piece you'd expect them to last a long time. So far we've gone through 11 total and average about 75 hrs each. We swapped out the fuel pressure guages with an aftermarket EI fuel pressure/flow system this winter, which eliminated the Piper transducers.

Next problem was with the carbs. Most of the carb issues have been out of the box or nearly new carb. failures. We've has 7 carbs fail total in the last two years. 5 with less than 10 hrs on them...2 were out of the box failures. 6 of the 7 had problems with the float sinking. We've tried every type of float offered for this model of carb. We've fixed the problem for now and only Valari floats do the trick. Both times we have had this problem was following engine overhauls. Aparently we should have kept the old carbs.

We've had to do two engine overhauls early. The first was at 1000 hrs on the left engine due to sudden inexpliable loss of oil pressure which would cause the prop to feather. Had the engine overhauled at a reputable, well known shop. Reinstalled with same problem occuring during engine break in. Sent it in for second overhaul...same problem. Sent in for third overhaul...problem fixed but no one at the shop can explain why it was happening.

Recently had the right engine overhauled (at 1100 hrs) due to cracked crankshaft. No explination for crack as we have not had any damage history for the aircraft and propeller shows no signs of an unreported prop strike.

So far in four years we are about $200,000 into maintenance and have flown the aircraft roughly 700 hrs. $285/hr for maintenance is crazy!

Our maintenance is inhouse and our aircraft are impeciabbly maintained. The problem is with new parts. We sent the faulty transducers out to both the FAA and a third party. They all failed due to a common internal problem which came down to poor quality parts. The carbs have almost all had the common problem of a sinking float, again poor quality.

For that matter we've had similar problems with Piper Arrow. Many similar or same parts. Have had such bad problems with fuel qty, fuel pressure, oil pressure, and manifold pressure gauges we are looking at replacing them all with an EI MVP 50.

We operate a number of Cessna 172s and have had few problems with them. Obviously the comparison is unfair as the 172 is a pretty simplistic aircraft, however, I'm quickly becoming a Cessna guy.

On another note...as per using turbos for training...I used to train pilots for a 135 operator in Cessna 402s. I trained around 30 pilots for IFR 135 rides...we averaged about 20 flight hours per pilot. We had TBO extensions on the TSIO-520s and rarely did an engine not make TBO or need to have cylinders replaced, even on the two aircraft we primarily used to training. Maybe we were just lucky though...

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

With a 135 pilot, they have some experience. I've seen a piper Seneca II used for flight training and charter. It wasn't pretty on the airplane and there were so many issues with the airplane I was amazed. (I would say the airplane went into MX after the flight 50% of the time).

How long do you think turbos will last with a steady stream of fresh multi students that are used to pushing the throttle full forward? Not to mention students that aren't used to planning descents. Oh, and most students see the $300 per hour price tag on the airplane and run away.

No idea on using a 300 series cessna for a training twin. I know of a few places that use a 310.

 

[Flex-ible]

I used to own a Seneca II - great personal or light charter plane, but I would not use it for flight training. Between overboosting and shock cooling, your problems with the Seminole would look cheap.

I know a number of big flight schools have great success with the Seminole - not sure why you are having such problems. only other big name you haven't mentioned in the Duchess. Still a few of those around.

 

[acpilot]

I worked for a school that flew a pair of PA-23 Apaches (150hp!) and ran them on 80/87 (pumped from a company F-150 with a series of tanks in the bed). They were cheap (like $119/hr-wet cheap) and very, very popular with the local time-building, MEI, and multi-commercial community.

Talk to your insurance company about taking out all but the front two seats. . There should be a SIGNIFICANT change in your premiums without the extra passenger seats installed. We ran the Apache that way and never had trouble renting them out. It's nearly impossible to have a nice AND cheap airplane. I'm assuming you're trying to capture more students that renters.

As far as having a turbo'd 300 series Cessna (borderline cabin-class) twin available for training, you are running the very real risk of not making TBO on your engines.

 

[Tired Soul]

Why would an insurance company hesitate to insure a late 70-ies Aztec?
Great airplanes for training. In training mode (2 pilots, full fuel) it's like a 1000lbs below MTOW so it will always climb on one engine.
Downsides that it will burn a fairly heinous amount of fuel unless you fly like 17/21 in the practice area. In training you'll probably average 25-30 gallons/hr that's $120/hr in gas.
And if you jet the wrong one they'll be MX hogs too.
Looks like you have a Monday Morning Seminole, how many different MEI's do you have flying this airplane? Maybe you should quit the rentals, I 've always hated those.

 

[brokeflyer]

stop doing mixure cuts for simulated engine failures....

that will fix several thousand dollars worth of bull ********************.