Multi-engine takeoff briefing

[SAMRA]

In what **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing world would you do a v1 cut in a non training enviroment? You sir a moron for assuming I do whenever I feel like it. As for mr. 800 hour instructor being a passenger in a plane and flying it is two different things. As soon as you step into the real world of flying and out of instructing I'll continue to have a civil argument with you.

Don't try to compare flight instructing and flying a lear pavement to pavement to what I do on a daily basis with a 'claped out ho.' Do you know what a hermon nelson is? Let alone how to fix one at -35? I didn't think so.

I'm glad your happy with what you do, gear_guy. Perhaps you can go to a flight school and tell all the aspiring pilots there how hard you work at 3-5-0.


Since this is turning into a pissing match, PM me to continue, or start a new thread. I don't want to hijack this guys thread.

 

[troy]

Not to rain on anybody's parade, but I can fix a Herman Nelson....

 

[Flying Illini]

Take-off briefing:

DA-10/DA-20:

Departing rwy XX, runway is clear and dry (uncontaminated), field elevation is XXXX, temperature is XXXX, runway length is XXXX, runway required is XXXX. Route is (insert "SID briefing" or "Direct to" or "as filed"), Initial altitude is XXXX. We will abort for anything (depending upon runway length we may use 80 kts or V1 as primary abort speed, I'll use 80kts in this example) prior to 80 kts, after 80 kts we will abort for the "big-5":, engine failure, engine fire, thrust reverser deployment, loss of directional control, or uncommanded pitch trim. After V1 we will take any problem airborn and treat it as an in-flight emergency. We will climb V2 to XXXX altitude before addressing the problem. We will return to this airport (or go to XXX airport). This will be my leg from the right seat (in my case) using standard callouts. Any questions, comments, or concerns?

 

[Thedude]

Take-off briefing:

DA-10/DA-20:

Departing rwy XX, runway is clear and dry (uncontaminated), field elevation is XXXX, temperature is XXXX, runway length is XXXX, runway required is XXXX. Route is (insert "SID briefing" or "Direct to" or "as filed"), Initial altitude is XXXX. We will abort for anything (depending upon runway length we may use 80 kts or V1 as primary abort speed, I'll use 80kts in this example) prior to 80 kts, after 80 kts we will abort for the "big-5":, engine failure, engine fire, thrust reverser deployment, loss of directional control, or uncommanded pitch trim. After V1 we will take any problem airborn and treat it as an in-flight emergency. We will climb V2 to XXXX altitude before addressing the problem. We will return to this airport (or go to XXX airport). This will be my leg from the right seat (in my case) using standard callouts. Any questions, comments, or concerns?

Now...when you have an actual emergency you expect me to remember all that. Noooo. It always amazes me how many people over-brief.

 

[Flying Illini]

Now...when you have an actual emergency you expect me to remember all that. Noooo. It always amazes me how many people over-brief.

No I don't expect you to remember all of that. A lot of it is just informative in nature i.e., Runway length is XXXX, runway required is XXXX. What is expected to be remembered is if an emergency occurs before V1, that we abort, if one occurs after V1, we're flying. Speeds are a good thing to remember and they're bugged in case you forget V2, initial altitude (which varies depending upon terrain) is good to remember since initial assigned altitude (set in the alerter) doesn't always match the briefed altitude that you will go to to deal with a problem. I guess when reading it (and when I was typing it) it seems like alot to brief, but you have it memorized and you know what the really important stuff is. It takes you 15-20 seconds to brief.
My opinion is this, I would rather have an emergency occur after a thorough take-off brief because then both pilots are on the same page. You don't have to try and tell the other guy what you are going to do while you're trying to fly a sick airplane.

 

[Lead Sled]

There have been some pretty good (and very usable) briefs given so far. Mine tend to be quite specific for the first flight of the day and then become somewhat less specific on subsequent legs. ("...As previously briefed...") However, unusual or special circumstances are always thoroughly briefed each and every time. One of my pet peeves is when a crew starts using the phrase "Standard Briefing" or something equivilent - I believe that without being verbalized, at least daily, the phase eventually becomes the brief, not the individual components of your standard briefing.

Nowadays, I am paired with another experience pilot and we've worked out a briefing technique that works well for us - but then we only fly with each other and we're always in the same airplane.

One other important thought...

Make sure that you always have the mindset that something "untoward" might happen to you on this takeoff. It's just as dangerous to develop the "expectation of success" prior to takeoff as it is during an approach to minimums.

Lead Sled

 

[gear_guy]

Now...when you have an actual emergency you expect me to remember all that.

No worries....If you fly with SAMRA you'll get all the experience you need. You'll be so experienced that you'll be able to fix a hermon nelson at -35.

Funny stuff!!!

 

[fokkers&beer]

To twist a Jimmy Buffett song lyric, brief what you'll fly, fly what you brief. I just cap the speeds, and what we will do when all hell breaks loose including which runway we will return to, if it happens AFTER V1. Remember that ATC will give you anything you could possibly want when you say the E word.
At the beginning of a series of trips I'll give a complete briefing with memory items, recap that the captain will call the abort, but everybody needs to call any lights or malifunctions. This brief is important, but in my opinion overbriefing and being longwinded on every takeoff can be counterproductive, and turn off the other crewmember.

 

[gear_guy]

....the captain will call the abort, but everybody needs to call any lights or malifunctions.

Just my opinion, but I have never seen the PF call the abort. The way we do it is: The pilot flying(PF) is looking outside and aborts for loss of directional control. The Pilot not flying(PNF) makes all the calls since he is looking inside the cockpit. If he sees anything abnormal he calls abort. We try to stay away from interpreting lights and buzzers and whether or not to abort. This can cause some problems. You don't have time on the takeoff roll to have the PNF report a light or malfunction and the PF make a judgement on whether or not to abort. By that time you're already through V1 and trying to stop it could cause problems. We just abort for anything below V1 and fly for anything after V1. It makes things real simple. And if you've done your calculations correctly you have nothing to worry about. On a side note, I used to fly with a guy who would abort after V1 if there was enough runway(in his opinion). Very dangerous!, and eventually someone will get hurt doing that.

Now I can go back to briefing aspiring pilots at the local flight school....
Sorry I just couldnt resist.

 

[ThomasR]

Briefings

Military pilots fly with each other regularly which negates the feeling that a briefing is necessary. However, when you feel it is warranted by all means do it. Bad things happen when you least expect it and it is very convenient to know what the other person in the cock-pit is going to do. Don't let someone roll their eyes at the precaution stop you from being safety conscious.

I flew with THE maintenance officer once returning a downed helicopter to base from a forced landing at a small air strip in Michigan. I had never flown with him before and was unsure what our combined reaction would be should the aircraft suddenly fail to stay airborne. He was confident since maintenance was his forte, but I was concerned so I gave a briefing of what I planned to do and what I expected from him in the event of an engine failure. He gave me eye roll and a glancing shrug. I felt a bit embarrassed but maintain I did the correct thing. Fortunately the flight went without incident.

Flying into unknown weather with an "old hat" in the other seat without a briefing; we were on short final still IMC, on course, on glide slope when suddenly this guy makes a grab for the controls. So we are fighting for control wobbling all over the place IMC and I say WHAT THE F--- ARE YOU DOING! He says I thought I saw the runway out my side window. It was actually the taxi way which would have been fine with me if he had the sense to say something before getting all gangster on me.

Flying special forces jump team we had a "hung jumper" snagged on the ground handling pins at the top of the skids. Fortunately we shared a briefing just before initiating the jump course. Even knowing what to expect we both were stunned for a moment hearing the jump master yelling commands to his trooper in distress. The JM went out the cargo door and was gone, I thought because he had to parachute. He was tethered with a "monkey strap" dangling from the side of the helicopter wrapping his troop to the skid to keep him from deploying his chute. [a chute deployed inside the aircraft will kill everyone on board]. The JM was definitely a hero.

There was a lot of stuff happening and without some format of what to do it could have been very serious. All four of us acted with a clear understanding of what the others were going to do. We pulled our asses out of some pretty tall flames that day. I will never forget that jump master going out that door without a chute [only a very small string between him and all our deaths].

Practice being safe.

 

[fokkers&beer]

I agree with Thomas R that a briefing is of the utmost importance on each takeoff. Each pilot needs to know who will do what and where you are going, if he plans to land visually, to what runway, or if he will take it up into the clouds. If it is a low take off like a 600 or 400 RVR takeoff we need to brief the companies low visibility takeoff procedures also, and talk about takeoff alternates, and different duties. These are the things he should brief and stick to it.
As for the weekly brief we fly week long trips with the same FO and after 35 hours of block and 30 takeoffs and landings in a week I feel as though the memory items for no auto feather and the calls for engine out only need to be briefed at the beginning of the week, for most crews, but then again that is at your discretion.
As for the Captain calling the abort, that is just this companies policy. It has some good points and some bad. It does'nt take long for an FO to call a fire light and the Captain to retard the power levers while he calls the abort. Or worse, the Captain calls the light, and my controls, abort, and retards the power levers. We fly old slow turboprops and have low speeds, it does'nt seem to be a problem.