Multi-cfi's I Need Your Help

[AAWORKER]

CAN ANY ONE WRITE OUT THE PROPER WAY TO DO A VMC DEMO....PLEASE PERFERABLIY IN A SENCA WITH POWER SETTINGS.


THANK YOU IN ADVANCE TO WHOM EVER CAN HELP ME


AND TO ALL HAPPY HOLIDAYS

 

[Data]

We use this when demonstrating Vmc in a seminole, the cruise check power settings are simply to run at about 120 kias...

- Cruise Check, power set 20"/2300, pumps off etc.
- Bug Heading
- 90 Degree Clearing Turn
- Bring the power back to 15" (both throttles)
- 90 Degree Clearing Turn back to bugged heading
- Fuel Selectors On
- Mixture Forward
- Props Forward
- Fuel Pumps On
- bring left throttle back to simulated zero thrust, 10" - 11"
use rudder to maintain directional control, pitch for blue line
- right throttle full forward
more rudder for directional control
- as speed comes down thru 100kias start pitching up slowly about 1 degree/second, you shouldn't have to go more than 10 degrees up, any more and the plane tends to lose directional control abruptly
- maintain directional control, as speed bleeds off, more rudder/aileron to keep heading
- first indication of stall or loss of directional control, bring right throttle half way back and nose over slightly, as speed increases bring right throttle back to full and continue pitching for blue line.
- cruise check again to finish

Hope it helps.

 

[AAWORKER]

thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that was so nice of you to do that

thank you buddy

 

[Wiggums]

Check the PTS, critical engine should be at idle. Also, cowl flaps in takeoff config.

 

[Speedtree]

Another thing you might want to think about is what kind of maneuver you are simulating here.

You want to bring the good engine throttle back to idle,not half-way or anywhere in between. You are simulating a loss of directional control in which the aircraft is about to flip you over and probably kill you. Lose that assymetrical thrust as fast as possible.

When demonstrating the manuever you don't have to be maniacly fast but very prompt. The examiners I know will have a fit if you don't bring it back to idle.

I also concur about bringing the dead engine to idle, (prop windmilling, not zero thrust)

 

[CRJ puppy]

That is absolutely incorrect concerning bringing the throttle on the good engine to idle. DO NOT do that. You are sacrificing any modicum of performance for directional control. That is not the point. You are simulating an engine failure after liftoff, you've allowed the a/s to get too slow and you are losing directional control. The last thing you want to do is regain directional control as you are hitting the ground!!!

There are numerous articles about this....sorry I am in a hurry and don't have the reference numbers....there was a memo to all FAA examiners and DE's this past spring about this, NAFI has written several artciles about this (probably accessible through their website).

I can tell you (as an examiner) that bringing the throttle on the good engine to idle during the recovery is absolutely, no questions, grounds for an "unsat"....

Sorry, don't have time to write more....off to fly...........

Blue skies.........

 

[CRJ puppy]

Additionally, for the Seminole or whatever a/c you are demo this recovery procedure in (because that is REALLY what you are doing), the proper airspeed to initiate the maneuver would be the normal climbout airspeed for you aircraft...in the case of the Seminole that is 88 KIAS....if you are at 100 (or 105, manufacturer's recommended climbout speed)..you are above 500' AGL and that is not the altitude/phase of flight that this entire process is simulating. When I have time later I will write the process for the Seminole as recommended by the manufacturer...also yes, prop should be windmilling as you are simulating that the engine has failed and you aren't doing anything except pitching (inappropriately) to climb. The FAA also wants you to practice this with "bank as require\d for 0 side slip"; no bank...and also banking 5o towards the inop engine....

please get on the various websites and research this more guys!!!

Sorry I don't have more time for a better response....

 

[AAWORKER]

THANKS AGAIN YOU PILOTS ARE VERY HELPFUL.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS

 

[JediNein]

Hmmm...

PTS for the Commercial MEL: (standards section of the lesson plan at http://pages.prodigy.net/jedinein/mel/vmcdemo.html )

2. Configures the airplane at VSSE/VYSE, as appropriate:
f. Power on critical engine reduced to idle.
g. Power on operating engine set to takeoff or maximum available power.

Idle, not zero thrust.

7. Recovers promptly by simultaneously reducing power sufficiently on the operating engine while decreasing the angle of attack as necessary to regain airspeed and directional control. Recovery SHOULD NOT be attempted by increasing the power on the simulated failed engine.

Nothing in there about exactly which power setting should be left on the operating engine, just "reduce power sufficiently...to regain airspeed and directional control."

The latest PTS also removes blocking of the rudder to require full rudder. I'm not comfortable with that, although being comfortable is not really part of doing a Vmc roll.

Fly SAFE least the training be worse than actual flying!
Jedi Nein

 

[AAWORKER]

thanks jedi nein i have been looking at your site already.............happy holidays

 

[spitfire1940]

VMC demo

Hey,

One more thing. You want to make sure you know your DE's preference for recovery.

The DE I send most of my students to wants recovery at the first sign of losing directional control. A wise choice, in my humble opinion.

But I did my private multi with this psycho DE who wanted a 30 DEGREE LOSS OF HEADING before you initiated the recovery. We all kind of thought it was stupid. A year or so later, this DE crashed a Seminole with a multi/private candidate (they both walked away from it, thank God.)

Rgds,

 

[CRJ puppy]

Generally most DE's will expect at least a 10o loss of direction since the FAR's required the a/c to recover from a 20o loss of control in the most unfavorable condition...per FAR 23.149...

Usually about 5o of that is the student not using enough rudder as their instructor was always blocking it, so they don't have their seat far enough forward to fully depress the rudder...

The reduction in throttle is just enough to regain directional control...in this demo that isn't idle...and it isn't the intent of the maneuver as I previously stated....trading ALL performance (ie, some thrust on the operating engine) for directional control is for when you ARE putting the a/c on the ground...to avoid hitting the mall, senior citizen center, day care center, etc...

This point of the maneuver is to RECOVER and CLIMB away from the ground (safely), all WHILE REGAINING directional control after an unitentional loss of directional control due to an engine failure after liftoff and ensuing loss of a/s due to inexperience, distraction whatever...

Have a "Happy New Year" everyone...

 

[Booker]

The latest PTS also removes blocking of the rudder to require full rudder. I'm not comfortable with that, although being comfortable is not really part of doing a Vmc roll.

This came up where I work. Most of the DEs still seem to be okay with MEI applicants limiting the rudder when demonstrating. I don't know what they do on Part 61 private/commercial rides, though. (We have examining authority for 141 multi ratings.) But, we fly the mighty SEMI, and as such you will virtually always get the stall horn before seeing the nose slip. So, one could say that the only thing the student would ever see is a single-engine stall, which is not the only point of the maneuver. Maybe doing it both ways, with and without limited rudder, would be best.

Just some food for thought.

 

[CRJ puppy]

If you practice the maneuver with zero bank (wings level, ie., side slipping) and while banking towards the INOP engine, you WILL see a loss of directional control without blocking the rudder (except at very cold winter temps). This is why the FAA desires you (MEI's) to practice the maneuver with your students in this manner in addition to banking as required (usu. only 2-3o in the Seminole & Duchess)...They need to see what a loss of directional control REALLY looks like....

This is a hell of alot less nerve racking maneuver than power on stalls in the Seminole and the student applying inappropriate aileron input as a wings drops.....

 

[Booker]

If you practice the maneuver with zero bank (wings level, ie., side slipping) and while banking towards the INOP engine, you WILL see a loss of directional control without blocking the rudder (except at very cold winter temps).

Excellent point. Another reminder that the checkride way isn't the only way.

This is a hell of alot less nerve racking maneuver than power on stalls in the Seminole and the student applying inappropriate aileron input as a wings drops.....

Concur! I've been there and done that myself, though, in my student days. It's even more fun in the Baron. But like you say, Vmc demos don't hurt my nerves at all.

 

[stardog]

This is a hell of alot less nerve racking maneuver than power on stalls in the Seminole and the student applying inappropriate aileron input as a wings drops.....

You practice power-on FULL stalls with one engine inop? Mommy!

 

[Wiggums]

No, a power on stall with both engines running can be pretty exciting depending on the student's recovery method.

 

[JediNein]

Hmmm, well I have polished my technique on recovery from inverted flat spins with recovery on a heading +/- 5 degrees...

But that Army study on single-engine stalls in the Baron is sobering. When I find the study online, I'll post it. The study essentially stated that in a single-engine stall, the pilot had one second to get the power off the working engine in the Baron or the spin that resulted was not recoverable.

How would the Seminole/Duchess T-tail affect the stall/spin recovery? Can that nose be pitched down?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[CRJ puppy]

Good LORD!

I didn't mean to imply practicing power-on stalls in the Seminole with one engine inop!!

They are FAR too exciting when you have both engines at reduced thrust (18", high RPM) the student pitches up and close to the buffet, the plane drops a wing and the student "SNAPS" in opposite aileron! Although I can report that the Seminole recovers nicely from the incipient stage of a spin...though having the right wing tip pointing directly to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean WAS a special experience!

Ever seen the Pope kiss the ground after he deplanes? I wanted to do it that day but thought it might alarm the student....

God, do I miss flight instructing!!

 

[IP076]

Power-On SE Stalls

Don't know what and where you guys fly, but it seems to me that I do Power On Single Engine Stalls daily in the Seminole. Its called a VMC Demo at 4000' AGL when the ground is 5000' MSL. The Seminole always stalls first at these altitudes.

This manuever isn't always finished with the "recover & climb away". Most of the time if this were to happen at my airport, it would be the "recover, and land with airplane control and wings level" instead of cartwheeling down the highway after hitting the ground in a VMC roll.

I teach my students exactly what the PTS says; "Reduce power as required". You have to understand that this may be not at all. Close to the ground you can recover from the roll by just lowering the AOA.

 

[Booker]

Re: Power-On SE Stalls

Don't know what and where you guys fly, but it seems to me that I do Power On Single Engine Stalls daily in the Seminole. Its called a VMC Demo at 4000' AGL when the ground is 5000' MSL. The Seminole always stalls first at these altitudes.

That was kind of the point of my message a while back about the FAA removing the "limiting the rudder" clause from the new PTS. In the SEMI, if you don't limit the rudder (and do everything else within PTS/AFH guidelines), you'll invariably get the horn first, as you and I have both said.

I've created a monster...

 

[Wiggums]

Re: Power-On SE Stalls

Don't know what and where you guys fly, but it seems to me that I do Power On Single Engine Stalls daily in the Seminole. Its called a VMC Demo at 4000' AGL when the ground is 5000' MSL. The Seminole always stalls first at these altitudes.

Ok, but during a Vmc demo you should be recovering the instant you hear the stall warn. Where it gets exciting is if you start a power on turning stall at twenty inches MAP. Right as the buffet starts usually the low wing will drop. At that instant snap the aileron the opposite direction in an attempt to level the wings. Now recover from the incipient spin.

 

[IP076]

Right

Yeah, I'll agree with that. Gets pretty darn intersting...

Just a little confusion on my part....

 

[mackinhoes]

I don't see what the big deal is- I think you should try this stuff in IMC to make it interesting. Get a block of airspace from ATC and go do it all in the clouds.

Or, as I did in my old instructing days, two hoods. One for him and one for me.

Stall/spin/vmc recoveries on the gages. After you get the hang of it - Piece of cake.