More UPS info

[tubineotter]

I might have to disagree with ya YIP, I think hr wants people they can manage and pilot skill be damned they look for the degree since they know those peeps jumped thru that hoop? Just my hillbilly reasoning?!

 

[pilotyip]

I might have to disagree with ya YIP, I think hr wants people they can manage and pilot skill be damned they look for the degree since they know those peeps jumped thru that hoop? Just my hillbilly reasoning?!

I can verify from my experience the possession of a college does not mean a person is manageable, nor does it mean they have the material to become a Captain. In fact the trait that normally proves to be the most manageable is a military background. We love hiring vets. We give a basic intelligence test as part fo our hiring process. Above average basic intelligence is normally the foundation of the good employee, they can look beyond themselves. Many college grads have trouble with this test, many high school grads ace it. The trouble with the HR wiz is that they are most likely degreed and can not believe anyone could be a good as them without a degree.

 

[weasel_lips]

I can verify from my experience the possession of a college does not mean a person is manageable, nor does it mean they have the material to become a Captain. In fact the trait that normally proves to be the most manageable is a military background. We love hiring vets. We give a basic intelligence test as part fo our hiring process. Above average basic intelligence is normally the foundation of the good employee, they can look beyond themselves. Many college grads have trouble with this test, many high school grads ace it. The trouble with the HR wiz is that they are most likely degreed and can not believe anyone could be a good as them without a degree.

That's what is referred to as anecdotal evidence.

For those without a college education: The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be true but unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.

 

[pilotyip]

That's what is referred to as anecdotal evidence.

For those without a college education: The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be true but unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.

Brilliant and confirms what I have saying all along, from my experience in a bottom feeder airline, I have discovered that the college degree has nothing to do with being a successful pilot, however the basic intelligence test is the best predictor. Smarter pilots are better pilots.

Robert Lovett, WWII Asst Sec of War for Air, may have saved the US in WWII. He showed we needed quantity, not some imagined quality. We will need 100K pilots per year, we will not get that many physically qualified college educated pilots. He said the college was not needed to fly an airplane, so he devised a test to identify those traits and knowledge levels needed to be successful in pilot training. He found that many college educated people could not pass this test, but many high school graduates could. These 19 year old pilots proved their worth all over the globe, flying equipment under conditions that would test almost all of us on this board.


This test is still in use my all the services in screening their potential pilot candidates.

 

[doylehargraves]

Is UPS ever going to hire again anytime soon?

 

[1678]

Nothing to get over, just the facts mam, just the facts. Just watch it is coming, maybe not at UPS/DAL but almost everywhere else. with the experience shortage coming, the degree will be secondary to the ability to fly an airplane

So...... somebody who was qualified in the mid to late 90's for the majors and have 10,000+ hrs of flt. time around: the world, the US, South America, etc. and have flown the 767, DC10, L1011, 747, MD80, 737, etc, but almost exclusively as a FO; due to no fault of their own, but the fact that the companies they worked for didn't make it for one reason or another and they have had to jump ship and start over and over again. They now, according to your thinking are less qualified than a young "starting out" pilot in his early to mid 20's who got to upgrade in a crj after 1-2 years and now have 1300 hrs of jet PIC time and 4000 hrs total time is more qualified than the other "Inexperienced FO - but very experienced pilot" because he might only have 500-900 hrs of turbine PIC time???????????

I know at least 10 - 15 pilots in this exact situation, and don't come and tell me that they are not qualified for UPS, VN, DL, FedEx or anyone else...

 

[tubineotter]

1678, I think somewhere you missed Yip's point. And no UPS will not be hiring soon, unless you are management!

Yip unfortunately the kids @ hr decide your fate, so Im going to get my degree. Still have over 30years to fly so it will probably pay off?

 

[doylehargraves]

How are the management pilots perceived/treated/regarded at UPS? Just curious since they were hired during layoffs.

 

[SIG600]

How are the management pilots perceived/treated/regarded at UPS? Just curious since they were hired during layoffs.

The term "chalky white dog sh!t" came up with regards to mgmt pilots when I was talking to a UPS 747 Capt.

 

[fam62c]

So...... somebody who was qualified in the mid to late 90's for the majors and have 10,000+ hrs of flt. time around: the world, the US, South America, etc. and have flown the 767, DC10, L1011, 747, MD80, 737, etc, but almost exclusively as a FO; due to no fault of their own, but the fact that the companies they worked for didn't make it for one reason or another and they have had to jump ship and start over and over again. They now, according to your thinking are less qualified than a young "starting out" pilot in his early to mid 20's who got to upgrade in a crj after 1-2 years and now have 1300 hrs of jet PIC time and 4000 hrs total time is more qualified than the other "Inexperienced FO - but very experienced pilot" because he might only have 500-900 hrs of turbine PIC time???????????

I know at least 10 - 15 pilots in this exact situation, and don't come and tell me that they are not qualified for UPS, VN, DL, FedEx or anyone else...

The fact is that individual airlines determine their hiring requirements and if you want to get an interview you need to meet (or greatly exceed) those requirements. Right or wrong it is what it is and you can argue all you want about the merits of a college degree, PIC time, type rating or whatever but it won't get you an interview so why waste your breath. You either have what they want or you don't have it. If you don't have it and you want to work there you better get it............get it?

 

[pilotyip]

The fact is that individual airlines determine their hiring requirements and if you want to get an interview you need to meet (or greatly exceed) those requirements. Right or wrong it is what it is and you can argue all you want about the merits of a college degree, PIC time, type rating or whatever but it won't get you an interview so why waste your breath. You either have what they want or you don't have it. If you don't have it and you want to work there you better get it............get it?

Not if you exceed their requirements by too much they will not interview you, been there done that. HR has a hiring profile, if you are outside of it, bye bye. Trouble is to often this is done by some low level HR admin person who does not know a P-3, from a J-3. Short story while in that period of between jobs I apply a Midway II, never hear anything I have no jet time, but 4000 in the P-3/L-188. 2 years later I meet the CP at a Job Fair where I am recruiting for JUS. Over beers I mention that I applied there a couple years ago and never heard anything. His response, "Oh! you should have called me, I would have hired you". In hind sight it was a good thing I did not get hired at Midway II.

 

[m80drvr]

So...... somebody who was qualified in the mid to late 90's for the majors and have 10,000+ hrs of flt. time around: the world, the US, South America, etc. and have flown the 767, DC10, L1011, 747, MD80, 737, etc, but almost exclusively as a FO; due to no fault of their own, but the fact that the companies they worked for didn't make it for one reason or another and they have had to jump ship and start over and over again. They now, according to your thinking are less qualified than a young "starting out" pilot in his early to mid 20's who got to upgrade in a crj after 1-2 years and now have 1300 hrs of jet PIC time and 4000 hrs total time is more qualified than the other "Inexperienced FO - but very experienced pilot" because he might only have 500-900 hrs of turbine PIC time???????????

I know at least 10 - 15 pilots in this exact situation, and don't come and tell me that they are not qualified for UPS, VN, DL, FedEx or anyone else...

Unfortunately many places see you as a problem....ie low/no PIC compared to your total time. Unfortunately the RJ guy that has never flown anything bigger or never been out of the USA is better qualified to fly the MD-11 out of Hong Kong. This is what you get when companies have HR set the mins AND use computers to sort through the apps. This is what is happening at FEDEX. (Confirmed by a chief pilot). It is a total kick in the jimmies for many of us in the same or similar situation. 10000 hrs, 1700 PIC turbine (3500 total PIC) 5 type rating and international time and I am still less qualified than the RJ guy because his percent of PIC turbine to total time is better than mine. (Not a slam on the RJ captain I just don't think you are MORE qualified than me and many other guys that happened to get into the industry before you.)


Unfortunately that is the way it is. Maybe when the shortage (that will not ever happen) occurs the minimums will change.

That being said from what I have heard the FEDEX folks know that this is a problem and hopefully they will change the computer model used to select the apps.

 

[pilotyip]

Unfortunately that is the way it is. Maybe when the shortage (that will not ever happen) occurs the minimums will change.

The shortage is already here, lower end companies are having trouble filling classes.

 

[m80drvr]

The shortage is already here, lower end companies are having trouble filling classes.

Thats not a shortage, thats low pay. Yes there are less pilots getting ATPs and yes there will be some sort of shortage but with 5000 apps turned in for the last round of SWA hiring I don't see much of a shortage. If the commuters can't get pilots its due to low pay and crappy work rules. Not a shortage or pilots. Commuters see a shortage when they can't get pilots to work for 18k a year. In most other industries the pay is adjusted to attract qualified applicants, not in the airline industry. We have a long history of pimping ourselves out to get the "experience" so we can get on with a major that we will work for nothing. Pilots are their own worst enemy.

Pilot shortages have been predicted for decades......Has not happened in the recent history. The last one was in the 70s or so when 250 hours and an commercial license got you on at Eastern. Since then the pay has not kept up with inflation yet we, pilots, lined up to work for nothing.

If the shortage does show up the old farts will just get the retirement age changed again.

I hope the shortage happens but it usually doesn't amount to much due to external forces ie recession, terror attack, ect.

Again just because someone won't work for 18k a year does not yet indicate a pilot shortage. Finally maybe people are coming to their senses.

 

[pilotyip]

Thats not a shortage, thats low pay.

18K please?, DA20 F/O starting is $35K, most make $40K first year. Tops out at $175/hr, this is low pay? Gross of $150K/yr is low pay? Don't think it is the pay, it is the non-sked thing, living on a cell phone at KYIP, most pilots are not cut out for this kind of work.

On the shortage, All the major airlines have the same 5000 resumes and applications, just like 1996 when they said they had 10,000 and there would never be shortage. Then came 1999, SWA dropped the 73 type needed to interview, UAL, NWA dropped this college degree thing in order to fill classes. True UPS, Fed Ex and SWA will never have a real storage, however they might redefine their "Competitive hiring mins"

You might be right, and then again I might be right. Only time knows the true answer. But we are already seeing it.

 

[ATRCAPT]

Nothing to get over, just the facts mam

It's "ma'am". Had you gone college you would have known that. Kidding! I'm kidding!

 

[pilotyip]

It's "ma'am". Had you gone college you would have known that. Kidding! I'm kidding!

Actually I went and got a couple degrees, look what it has done for me. A non-sked at KYIP? ha Ha. But I am having a ball!

 

[Quack]

Yip...the overall size of the legacies compared to the late 90s is a fraction of their size. No more northwest, no more continental, twa, and soon to be us airways. Look at the size now of the regionals and it's easy to see that the ONLY shortage we'll see will be at the regional level. Now this isn't a bad thing because that means they'll have to pay the regional guys more, and if they get more, you can almost guarantee the majors will fight for more. But having the majors fighting tooth and nail to attract applicants will never happen, the supply line at the bottom will always be greater than the demand at the top.

 

[BornAgainPagan]

When they were hiring in 2007, UPS did not have a hard requirement for a degree.

 

[SIG600]

If the regionals have to stop paying bottom feeding wages, they're dead. It's one of the only things allowing them to undercut each other.