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More pressure on Comair....

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Vortilon

Big Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2003
Posts
236


Comair feeling cost-cut pressure: Industry's woes could hit profits
The Cincinnati Enquirer 9-25-04
Comair could be looking once again to take a swipe at labor costs, its biggest expense.

The Delta Air Lines subsidiary posted an operating profit of $23.1 million in the second quarter of 2004, financial data released this week by the U.S. Transportation Department show.

But observers note that costs have risen at the Erlanger-based regional carrier - and operating profit margins have fallen significantly for the first half of this year compared to 2003.

Meanwhile, Delta is looking to cut costs to avoid bankruptcy - and it next year may lower the fees it pays its regionals to carry Delta passengers.

"We're going to see an incredible amount of turmoil at all major regionals over the next couple of years," said Embry Riddle Aeronautical Institute airline economics professor Darryl Jenkins. "The mainline carriers can no longer promise their regional partners that they will make money when the majors can't make money themselves. And that has begun to trickle down to the regionals."

Comair may appear profitable, but the numbers may not be accurate because Delta owns the subsidiary, meaning that the parent could be skewing the profits to make its subsidiary look good for financiers, Jenkins said.

In addition, the figures are based upon industry standards that don't fully apply to Comair - since Delta pays the subsidiary per hour of flying, not per passenger.

Earlier this month, Delta said it would be cutting 6,000 to 7,000 jobs while trimming pay and benefits for non-union workers company-wide.

Delta's announcement did not include any immediate cuts for Comair, which employs more than 4,000 locally at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport - Delta's second-largest hub. But Comair officials warned then that the carrier needed to become cost-competitive with other regional airlines.

Citing regulatory concerns, officials with Delta and Comair would not comment on the federal statistics, required to be submitted by all airlines over a certain size.

But Comair spokesman Nick Miller did say that "the fundamental forces that are reshaping our industry are putting pressure on our airline" and that Comair was expecting to see parent Delta lower the fees it pays for carrying passengers as early as next year. Delta officials would not comment.

Miller would not specify what could happen with Comair's unions as a result, but said that any "non-competitive cost area" needed to be addressed if the airline were to continue to grow.

That includes Comair's pilots, whose 89-day bitter strike in 2001 landed them the most lucrative contract in the regional industry.

But soon after came the 9/11 terror attacks that accelerated an industry makeover. Now, industry analysts say that Comair's overall labor costs are some of the highest in the regional industry, pushing Comair's overall operating costs higher than average.

"If they don't become cost-competitive, they will lose business and any expansion possibilities - Delta has already shown they will do that, even to its own subsidiary," said Ray Neidl, airline analyst with Calyon Securities.

Late last year, Comair asked its pilots for concessions in return for the potential for new planes and more flying, but the pilots said no.

Delta chose in March to give the new planes to other less-expensive carriers in 2005. Comair next year won't expand its fleet for the first time in company history.

Just this week, Delta announced that another subsidiary, ASA, would get all but three of 28 new flights coming to Cincinnati as a result of the closure of Delta's hub in Dallas, although that move was not seen as related to Comair's costs.

J.C. Lawson III, chairman of Comair's branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, acknowledged that the company could ask to start talks soon or could wait until the current contract comes open for negotiation in January 2006.

"We don't have a crystal ball as to what could happen, but we are preparing for anything," Lawson said. "We know that they don't like our costs ... but when you appear to be turning a profit when times are horrible, and to say 'we want you to lower costs just because we want you to,' well, that's a hard sell to a labor organization."

When asked if Comair's pilots would be open to concessions in return for continued growth at the airline, Lawson would not comment.

But Lawson pointed out that other major regional airlines are matching the contract at Comair for their pilots, which would make it hard to backtrack.
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So let me get this straight, Comair isn't losing money but is in fact making money. Now the bean counters are complaining that they could be making MORE money if everyone worked for a bit less?!? So now the rule is you take a pay cut if your company is in bankruptcy, you take a pay cut if your company is threatening bankruptcy and you take a pay cut if you are still making money so you can make more?

But Lawson pointed out that other major regional airlines are matching the contract at Comair for their pilots, which would make it hard to backtrack.

Who? Mesa? Mesaba?
 
"Comair may appear profitable, but the numbers may not be accurate because Delta owns the subsidiary, meaning that the parent could be skewing the profits to make its subsidiary look good for financiers, Jenkins said.

In addition, the figures are based upon industry standards that don't fully apply to Comair - since Delta pays the subsidiary per hour of flying, not per passenger."


That's what a lot of us thought. If Comair were a lot more profitable, Comair would be expanding more.... Not a shot at the Comair guys - everyone deserves to earn a good living, but unfortunately the realities of the marketplace are going to make it difficult to maintain wage levels - especially with Mesa and CHQ operating at much lower levels....

Why would Delta expand Comair if CHQ, Skywest and maybe Skyway are cheaper? Can you come up with a good answer to that? I have flown on both Comair and CHQ and there is no perceptable quality or operational difference in my mind. It comes down to money and it sounds like Comair is a bit on the expensive side for Delta at the moment...
 
i agree. they are a tad $$. and thats whats making people think about whats next.

delta pays X$ per hour flown.
the industry sinks and costs of operating go way up.
delta still pays you the same X$ per hour you fly.
you dont feel the sting of hte industry because your costs never changed apart for gas....mabye...unless delta picks that up too.
so now delta is paying you the same money it did before...but its not helping their situation. so you may be making a profit....but theyre not as a result.
the person who payed you X$ per hour can no longer afford to pay that. they are running out of money to pay you.

whats the answer to that? if they cant pay what you ask.....what will you do next?

say your hardware store makes X-ammount, but the guy who you rent the building from wants rent in excess of what youre making (cites the cost of keeping that building running skyrocketed)....what do you do?..now ad the fact that the guy wanting the rent is the partent of your hardware company....now what does HE do? and what do YOU do?
 
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Why would Delta expand Comair if CHQ, Skywest and maybe Skyway are cheaper?

How do you know CHQ, SKW, and Skyway are cheaper?? Delta is paying Comair a fee per departure. In other words, Delta is paying Delta a fee for departure for every Comair flight. How do you know that when you compare apples to apples, Comair costs Delta more money per hour??

Just because the pilot groups of those other airlines make less than the Comair pilot group, doesn't automatically mean Comair is more expensive per hour to operate.

Does anyone know what Delta pays each airline per hour? Does anyone know what kind of incentive dollars are in each contract? There is a reason these contract carriers are making huge profits.. and it's not just because they pay their pilots crap wages. They have great contracts with their partner airlines.

I remember reading something last year about ACA. It said their contract with United gave them break even plus a 50% profit. Do you think Comair was paid cost plus 50% before 9/11??
 
For a Comair Captain to be in line with other regional pilots that would be about a $6 or $7 dollar cut an hour. On the other hand, a Delta captain needs to take over $100 hr cut to be in line with the other Majors. The pressure should be on Delta mainline pilots.
 
Our mainline pay cuts are right there, waiting to be signed IMO. I think this was the plan all along, to get the creditors to commit, and then we will follow. It will happen, and then the non-union folks will also get a huge cut. The next step, in management's plan, is to get the regionals in line with Mesa. Like that great line from Metallica "YOU KNOW IT'S SAD BUT TRUE....."



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Vortilon said:
Comair feeling cost-cut pressure: Industry's woes could hit profits
The Cincinnati Enquirer 9-25-04
Comair could be looking once again to take a swipe at labor costs, its biggest expense....

"We're going to see an incredible amount of turmoil at all major regionals over the next couple of years," said Embry Riddle Aeronautical Institute airline economics professor Darryl Jenkins.

So they have MAJOR regionals now? What's the world coming to?
 
chperplt said:
How do you know CHQ, SKW, and Skyway are cheaper?? Delta is paying Comair a fee per departure. In other words, Delta is paying Delta a fee for departure for every Comair flight. How do you know that when you compare apples to apples, Comair costs Delta more money per hour??

Just because the pilot groups of those other airlines make less than the Comair pilot group, doesn't automatically mean Comair is more expensive per hour to operate.

Does anyone know what Delta pays each airline per hour? Does anyone know what kind of incentive dollars are in each contract? There is a reason these contract carriers are making huge profits.. and it's not just because they pay their pilots crap wages. They have great contracts with their partner airlines.

I remember reading something last year about ACA. It said their contract with United gave them break even plus a 50% profit. Do you think Comair was paid cost plus 50% before 9/11??
C'mon give me a break... Have you seen much expansion at Comair lately?????????? Let's think about this - why would Delta pay MORE to use outside regional feed when it has two perfectly good internal regionals? It has to be a cost issue related to the regional labor contracts... I doubt Skywest's or CHQ's quality service is that much better than Comair's....

Ok chperplt, you tell me why Comair has not been expanding while others have....
 
Meanwhile, Delta is looking to cut costs to avoid bankruptcy - and it next year may lower the fees it pays its regionals to carry Delta passengers.

IOW, CMR can become unprofitable with the stroke of a pen.

"The mainline carriers can no longer promise their regional partners that they will make money when the majors can't make money themselves. And that has begun to trickle down to the regionals."

So the mainline carriers that are losing money can no longer afford to promise profits to their regional affiliates.


Comair may appear profitable, but the numbers may not be accurate because Delta owns the subsidiary, meaning that the parent could be skewing the profits to make its subsidiary look good for financiers, Jenkins said.

I've always said you can't trust those bogus DOT numbers. They don't mean a thing. CMR is as profitable or as unprofitable as DAL wants them to be.

In addition, the figures are based upon industry standards that don't fully apply to Comair - since Delta pays the subsidiary per hour of flying, not per passenger.

Just another example of why CMR profits don't translate into profits for DAL, since CMR's revenue has nothing to do with the actual revenue produced by the passengers on that aircraft. It's all just a paper profit and meaningless.






 
Let's think about this - why would Delta pay MORE to use outside regional feed when it has two perfectly good internal regionals? It has to be a cost issue related to the regional labor contracts... I doubt Skywest's or CHQ's quality service is that much better than Comair's....

Ok chperplt, you tell me why Comair has not been expanding while others have....

First of all, I asked a question. I didn't profess to know the answer, hence the question Einstein.

Secondly, if you think every business decision is made solely based on immediate cost, you have a lot to learn about business.

If it was solely a dollar decision, then why has Comair expanded so much since 9/11? Didn't they have the same cost structure in 01 and 02 and 03???? Didn't CHQ and SKYW have the same structure as well? Has CHQ and SKYW signed new reduced cost contracts since 01??

Since you think you know it all, why don't you post the dollar for dollar comparison of each company? Until you do so, you're just talking out of your ass.
 
When Fred Butrell spoke with Comair Pilots earlier this month,

He said that DELTA as its OWN ENTITY the last quarter:
LOST MONEY ON EACH INDIVIDUAL Delta Connection partner. He said basically they lost money on not just Comair but CHQ, Skywest, and ASA also.

He said that the amount that DELTA brought in through REVENUES on EACH INDIVIAL DELTA CONNECTION partner was less than they PAID TO EACH INDIVIDUAL DELTA CONNECTION partner(CMR, ASA, CHQ, Skywest).

So DAL definitely LOST MONEY on CHQ and Skywest. He admitted this.

THE ONLY QUESTION is: CMR as an individual entity showed a profit and so did ASA. So is the amount of the profit that CMR and ASA made
MORE OR LESS THAN THE LOSS DAL's INDIVIDUAL internal books showed on their FLIGHTS?

IF THE PROFIT IS MORE than the LOSS DAL showed on their internal books then Comair is truly profitable for DAL, more so than CHQ and Skywest, SINCE THE MONEY for the WOs IS REALLY GOING FROM ONE POCKET TO ANOTHER.

The only problem is that DAL has said they are going to pay ALL of the DC carriers less next year. This is bad for Skywest and CHQ, but really WHO THE HECK KNOWS FOR COMAIR AND ASA??????

The numbers for Comair and ASA are bogus, I'll admit. Comair and ASA could be losing FISTFULLS OF MONEY or MAKING FISTFULLS for Delta. They like keeping it secret so they can WHIPSAW everyone to death and say since Comair's employees are paid too much
THEY'LL NEVER GROW AGAIN!! and instead will WITHER ON THE VINE!!


Good luck to all of us associated with DAL,
Jet
 
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OY6, I'll give it a shot -- although jetflyer pretty much already covered it...

>>Have you seen much expansion at Comair lately??????????

Yes, tremendous expansion over the last few years -- the real catch is will Comair continue to expand in the future?

>>Let's think about this - why would Delta pay MORE to use outside regional feed when it has two perfectly good internal regionals?

Negotiated contracts with the carriers are likely different. But, I don't profess to know by how much. What Delta pays CMR is still ultimately Delta's money -- as FDJ2 and others point out -- the pen stroke. It's possible that as long as Delta continues to put money into CMR/ASA while losing money each quarter at mainline, they have more bargaining power against the mainline contract, which is where they have the most to gain in concessions, while ultimately keeping the money on some mysterious corporate ledger. So, if we all get fee for departure, it doesn't really matter if they pay more to Comair, when that money still belongs to Delta. When they pay fees out to another carrier it's another expense Delta pays to an outside vendor. I think jetflyer did a better job of summing that up.

>>It has to be a cost issue related to the regional labor contracts...

No, it doesn't. There are likely many other issues as well. We (pilots) just happen to be one of them.

>>I doubt Skywest's or CHQ's quality service is that much better than Comair's....

Your right, it's not. It's pretty much airline standard, just like our's.

>>Ok chperplt, you tell me why Comair has not been expanding while others have....

Why did ASA sit idle for several years while Comair expanded? Comair pilots were being paid more than ASA pilots during those years. So, the labor contract must not be the only consideration. The additional jets awarded to ASA in the RFP will bring their total numbers up to the total number at Comair.

It's obvious from the news articles, Buttrell's visit, and continuing comments from Comair mgt. that we will face pay rate discussions in the future. But, they haven't asked yet, so shouting yes or no to pay cuts is futile. Just as futile as someone that DOESN'T work here telling us to cut our pay -- should we do it voluntarily? Go to Randy and say "hey buddy, we know Delta's hurting right now, how about nice fat pay cut?"

If, in fact, you are right and it is purely pilot labor cost, it's likely that Comair pilots don't have the most to lose from a pay freeze or cut, but actually the contract carriers -- as we would most definitely use that flying as a bargaining chip. Say, if we're coerced into CHQ's pay rates, why not bargain for their flying as well? What then would be the advantage to Delta to use an outside vendor?
 
chperplt said:
First of all, I asked a question. I didn't profess to know the answer, hence the question Einstein.

Secondly, if you think every business decision is made solely based on immediate cost, you have a lot to learn about business.

If it was solely a dollar decision, then why has Comair expanded so much since 9/11? Didn't they have the same cost structure in 01 and 02 and 03???? Didn't CHQ and SKYW have the same structure as well? Has CHQ and SKYW signed new reduced cost contracts since 01??

Since you think you know it all, why don't you post the dollar for dollar comparison of each company? Until you do so, you're just talking out of your ass.
Hey dumba$$,

Gee, you sound like a regular Donald Trump yourself - you must know a lot about business... So, if it were not a dollar issue, then why hasn't Comair expanded much lately? Can you answer that? Are Comair pilots paid the same as CHQ pilots? Nope. In case you hadn't noticed, Delta is in the middle of a cash crunch and dollars actually mean a lot more now than they did in the latter 90s. Don't think that Comair's high wages vs. Mesa and CHQ have escaped DAL management's radar - they still remember your strike a few years back...

I doubted that you could answer my original questions. I was right.
 
On Your Six said:
Hey dumba$$,
So, if it were not a dollar issue, then why hasn't Comair expanded much lately? Can you answer that?
You make yourself look like a real fool when you keep saying this.

Comair's domestic ASM's are up 25.3% this year (through Aug 31).
ASA's domestic ASM's are up 15.3% this year.

Let me repeat say this again, since you seem a little slow:

COMAIR has grown FASTER than ASA so far in 2004.

Just for comparison, Southwest's ASM's are up 5.3% year to date. So if Comair hasn't expanded much (as you claim), you must think WN is really weak.
 
jetflyer said:
When Fred Butrell spoke with Comair Pilots earlier this month,

He said that DELTA as its OWN ENTITY the last quarter:
LOST MONEY ON EACH INDIVIDUAL Delta Connection partner. He said basically they lost money on not just Comair but CHQ, Skywest, and ASA also.

He said that the amount that DELTA brought in through REVENUES on EACH INDIVIAL DELTA CONNECTION partner was less than they PAID TO EACH INDIVIDUAL DELTA CONNECTION partner(CMR, ASA, CHQ, Skywest).

So DAL definitely LOST MONEY on CHQ and Skywest. He admitted this.

THE ONLY QUESTION is: CMR as an individual entity showed a profit and so did ASA. So is the amount of the profit that CMR and ASA made
MORE OR LESS THAN THE LOSS DAL's INDIVIDUAL internal books showed on their FLIGHTS?

IF THE PROFIT IS MORE than the LOSS DAL showed on their internal books then Comair is truly profitable for DAL, more so than CHQ and Skywest, SINCE THE MONEY for the WOs IS REALLY GOING FROM ONE POCKET TO ANOTHER.

The only problem is that DAL has said they are going to pay ALL of the DC carriers less next year. This is bad for Skywest and CHQ, but really WHO THE HECK KNOWS FOR COMAIR AND ASA??????
What Fred Actually said was that DCI broke even(barely under, actually), Which means DCI division made $22 million on Comair because they consider fees for departure paid to Comair as lost, which obviously they are not. The $22 million easily eclipses the $16 million "lost" on DCI in the second quarter. He also said that Comair is the cheapest alternative to DCI. Straight from Fred, and even Randy had a few things to say about it.

What this means is that, yes, Comair is profitable for Delta, but it would not be if Delta did not own them.

Remember that DCI includes a horribly unprofitable ACA operation which without, DCI would be easily profitable. There's also some speculation that Delta did not include ASA's revenues with DCI but did include their costs. Then bored reporters like this one don't do their research, eat it up and...well you see the product.

The numbers for Comair and ASA are bogus, I'll admit. Comair and ASA could be losing FISTFULLS OF MONEY or MAKING FISTFULLS for Delta. They like keeping it secret so they can WHIPSAW everyone to death and say since Comair's employees are paid too much
THEY'LL NEVER GROW AGAIN!! and instead will WITHER ON THE VINE!!
If they're bogus then somebody better run and tell Bombardier, GE, and all of the financiers, because these are the numbers they're basing hundreds of millions of dollars worth of financing on. I'll trust that their accountants know enough to distinguish bad numbers from the good ones.
 
MedFlyer said:
You make yourself look like a real fool when you keep saying this.

Comair's domestic ASM's are up 25.3% this year (through Aug 31).
ASA's domestic ASM's are up 15.3% this year.

Let me repeat say this again, since you seem a little slow:

COMAIR has grown FASTER than ASA so far in 2004.

Just for comparison, Southwest's ASM's are up 5.3% year to date. So if Comair hasn't expanded much (as you claim), you must think WN is really weak.
Medflyer, c'mon now. You know what I am talking about - more aircraft and a substantial increase in new routes. We are talking expansion opportunities. Has CHQ and Skywest flying increased as % of total regional flying for Delta over the past few years? Yes. Your increase in ASM could be due to the addition of CRJ-700s.

My understanding is that ASA will get 15 CRJ-700s this year and potentially more CRJ-700s taken from an order of 25 CRJ-200s that can be upgraded (from the RFP). Sounds like Comair is too expensive to share in the growth - and ASA benefits... Hmmmmm. Is that too slow for you to understand?
 
My understanding is that ASA will get 15 CRJ-700s this year and potentially more CRJ-700s taken from an order of 25 CRJ-200s that can be upgraded (from the RFP

Is the fact that ASA will be losing their ATRs part of your understanding? Let's see... Take away airplanes with 70 seats and replace them with 50 seat airplanes. Is that expansion to you?
 

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