More Layoffs at the Best Fractional

[netjetwife]

Please be careful here, NJW... you really should be made aware of all the truths in this situation. Rotello, I am trying carefully to follow what is happening in the industry. It would be easier if the furloughed pilots from the different fracs posted their furlough package, current status, etc in one thread so we can all become better informed.

FACTS:

1. Yes, ...did come late in the day on a Friday with little detail. ...This is the news that Rigger posted. In this thread, but I was drawing from info I gathered last month on the "Video from CNBC" thread where Rigger was discussing his experience/insight as a furloughed CS pilot. He posted then...

And last but not least when you got your "furlough letter" no where in the letter did it state that your were furloughed! It did state ELIMINATE your position, upon your TERMINATION and hope to offer re-employment in the future, in fairness it did referance the FSH that details how furloughs are done but this document can be/has been and I am sure will be again changed at will. So I will ask here if you got this letter would you think you are furloughed or FIRED???

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123379&highlight=rigger&page=8

2. Per printed company policy, all furloughed pilots have unlimited length recall rights. Sure, it's not a CBA, .... Furlughing a pilot is ... a reflection of the dire economic situation ... I agree that the economy is to blame and that sometimes furloughs may be necessary, but it must be noted that Rigger is quite concerned over the lack of a binding guarantee to recall rights. No doubt because he is now in the position of having to rely on a company policy that can be changed at will. He made readers very aware of that truth...

.... The fact is we are hoping they will do the right thing.... (I really believe they will) BUT WHAT IF THEY DONT WHAT IS STOPPING THEM?????? NetJets knows the right thing will be done no matter what because they have a great big contract with penalties and stuff all laid out in it, It's great incentive....to always do the right thing!!! and this is a HUGE difference!!!!!

I don't believe Shares will back out of what they say but It is written in a way as to allow themselves that out.....If you have nothing but honorable intentions then why not spell it out! My last furlough letter spells it all out, How it works, when it will work, how long it will work for, etc. Nothing to hide nothing to hide behind. This one not so much!!! Only difference one was Union shop one was not.....

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123379&highlight=rigger&page=9


rotello

I agree with Rigger's posts but thought it more appropriate to quote him as the source of information responsible--in part--for my opinion. But even had I not exchanged posts with him, I would still be worried (as I've posted in the past) for the CS pilots because you don't have a CBA that ensures you have rights. Likewise, having your interests represented and a communication channel that remains open if you are furloughed are valuable advantages that shouldn't be casually dismissed. That's a fact that Rigger described from a personal perspective...

But going through this if I had my choice I would much rather have had the opportunity to have some control over my life, I would love to know today if I will be one of the chosen one that will be offered RE-EMPLOYMENT?? ... I would love to be able to tell my kids and my wife that no matter what happens, I will have a position back at the company and we won't have to start once again at the bottom of some seniority list.... but none of the above I can do because there is no plan, there is no communication (CS cut off our log in and our E mail) from the company, and we have no one speaking for us in or out of the company!

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123379&highlight=rigger&page=8

When it comes down to it, company policy is just a non-binding goal pilots hope management will meet. I wouldn't want my family to be in that situation and I wish that the CS families had the peace of mind the NJ families get from having a contract. In these worrisome times it helps a lot. NJW

 

[rotello]

I agree with Rigger's posts but thought it more appropriate to quote him as the source of information responsible--in part--for my opinion. But even had I not exchanged posts with him, I would still be worried (as I've posted in the past) for the CS pilots because you don't have a CBA that ensures you have rights.

NJW,

1. Thank you for taking the time to make detailed and meaningful posts to this board. I don't always agree with you on substance, but I can easily see that you put real thought into your statements and beliefs, and that is appreciated. It's also pretty rare around here these days.

2. The thing is, Rigger's posts (as you quoted in your reply) don't ACTUALLY point to a lack of fair treatment. They are statements about his FEELINGS and OPINIONS, not about poor treatment by CS. Aside from the late Friday notice that furloughs were coming (which I acknowledge was lame), nothing that you or Rigger posted has anything to do with the actual quality of treatment. Rigger (and you) are CONCERNED about the lack of a CBA outlining recall rights. Rigger is CONCERNED that it's just company policy, subject to change, etc. Despite that, however, Rigger himself (herself?) said: "I don't believe Shares will back out of what they say"

Simply being concerned about something doesn't make it unfair treatment, which is what you made it sound like when you said:

He posted the sad news on 6/26 and from Rigger's posts it doesn't sound as though Shares has treated those being furloughed/laid-off/terminated... very fairly.

If you want to say the Shares has not treated the furloughed pilots 'very fairly', I have to ask you to point to specific actions on the part of the company that lead to that conclusion.

At this point, I am not aware of any unfair treatment. They 'COULD do this', or they 'COULD do that' don't qualify as poor treatment, only as concerns on the part of someone affected.

What I have seen, for example, is my point #3 from my earlier post (that you did not address in your response), which highlighted some very GOOD treatment for a furloughee at any employer - 2 months of severance pay.

Until I see actual evidence of unfair treatment, I stand by my opinion which is formed by my first-hand experience as a pilot employed by CS: That CS is the best job I've ever had in aviation. That vast QOL improvements have come to me while I worked there, including major compensation enhancement, improved work/rest rules and meaningful improvements in safety. That I've been treated fairly at every turn. That I've witnessed pilots who have been terminated have their employment reinstated following our 'Peer Review Process'. That we are not perfect, but that the company makes a serious effort to be reasonable and fair and to correct defects in policy and procedure when they are made aware of them. That all of these things are true despite the fact that we have no union representing our pilots.

Don't get me wrong. I have every respect and admiration for NJASAP, IBT 1108 and organized labor in general - often times union representation is a necessity in this business. I am also aware that those organizations are 99% responsible for 99% of the improvements I've witnessed here at CS. Frankly, I love those guys. But I'm also happy that I haven't had to be a member to realize those gains. I'm open to having that opinion changed, but it will be changed by one thing and ont thing only: the actions of my employer, not the 'what ifs'. I'm confident I can identify the actions that would lead me to desire union representation to protect my interests, and I will seek it if necessary. But until I (or my brother and sister pilots) have ACTUALLY been treated poorly I see no reason to waste the effort and money on such an endeavor.

rotello

 

[7on7Off]

Well said rotello,

I've gotten so sick and tired of reading of all this supposed unfair treatment, how we are constantly getting screwed, and not having any actual proof what-so-ever. Its always I heard, or someone told me, but when pressed for specifics, there are none to be found.

 

[GSXR600]

Gosh....this thread is getting really boring with all this writing.....why don't you guys give yourselves your cell phone numbers and make this a conference call instead.

 

[netjetwife]

NJW,

1. Thank you for taking the time to make detailed and meaningful posts to this board. I don't always agree with you on substance, but I can easily see that you put real thought into your statements and beliefs, and that is appreciated. ...Thanks for the gracious words, Rotello. I don't expect FI members to always agree with me, but I think respectful debate of the issues is always possible so I try to post accordingly and I've learned a lot from those, like yourself, who reciprocate in kind.

2. The thing is, Rigger's posts (as you quoted in your reply) don't ACTUALLY point to a lack of fair treatment. They are statements about his FEELINGS and OPINIONS, not about poor treatment by CS. Aside from the late Friday notice that furloughs were coming (which I acknowledge was lame), nothing that you or Rigger posted has anything to do with the actual quality of treatment. ... I beg to differ.. The letter Rigger received was too ambiguous. He compared how CS did explaining everything and they fell short of the mark set by his previous employer when he was last furloughed. Unnecessary confusion makes a painful situation even more difficult.

If you want to say the Shares has not treated the furloughed pilots 'very fairly', I have to ask you to point to specific actions on the part of the company that lead to that conclusion. And I have to ask you... to understand that everything is relative. I used the qualifier "very" to suggest that Shares could have done better. If they had done badly, I'd have said they were being unfair. That said, I've been pointing to information and the lack thereof: Considering how stressed a furloughed pilot would be, prompt, clear communication should be a top priority. Instead, Shares cut off their log-in and email and, according to Rigger, no one has been assigned to speak for the furloughed pilots.

At this point, I am not aware of any unfair treatment....With all due respect, you haven't been furloughed, have you? So you're not in the position to accurately describe how well, or not, CS is doing handling the situation, right? That is to say, your mileage may be different.
What I have seen, for example, is my point #3 from my earlier post (that you did not address in your response) Only because I was trying to keep my post from getting too long...damned if you do, damned if you don't... , which highlighted some very GOOD treatment for a furloughee at any employer - 2 months of severance pay. Yes, I was aware of that. Sorry I didn't give CS due credit. My thoughts are that it's average to above average for the frac industry. Flex pilots got money, too-- for COBRA--but only 2 yrs for recall. As far as GOOD goes, I'd give that grade to NJ who offered those at risk a much better deal. A NJ pilot and family could count on (guaranteed in binding language)the option of taking a 3 yr LOA with benefits, including health care, and a thousand dollars a month.

Until I see actual evidence of unfair treatment, I stand by my opinion ... I don't mind further explaining my own. To me fairness is based on equality. CS pilots do essentially the same job as NJ pilots, but if both were about to be furloughed, I find it ironic that the NJ pilot/family would still keep (for 3yrs) an important QOL benefit (health care) that a CS pilot never had to begin with. That doesn't strike me as fair for CS pilots. Health care is considered a staple of professional compensation and for NJ to include it in LOAs just underscores that fact. CS pilots should get it, too. That vast QOL improvements have come to me while I worked there.... That we are not perfect, but that the company makes a serious effort to be reasonable and fair and to correct defects in policy and procedure when they are made aware of them. ... Agreed, which is why it's also frustrating to some in a "close, but no cigar" kind of way. CS management and pilots seem to have a good relationship that would be enhanced by spelling out their respective rights and responsibilities.

Don't get me wrong. I have every respect and admiration for NJASAP, IBT 1108 and organized labor in general - often times union representation is a necessity in this business. Not to mention a great "insurance policy" if things do go wrong or if management changes. I am also aware that those organizations are 99% responsible for 99% of the improvements I've witnessed here at CS. Frankly, I love those guys. It's to your credit that you acknowledge what others don't. Thanks for being fair and generous with your compliments. But I'm also happy that I haven't had to be a member to realize those gains. Why is that? Wanting to get a lot but pay only a little...:erm: I'm open to having that opinion changed, but it will be changed by one thing and ont thing only: the actions of my employer, not the 'what ifs'. Do you skip home and auto insurance, too... I'm confident I can identify the actions that would lead me to desire union representation to protect my interests, and I will seek it if necessary. For your sake, I hope that day never comes too late, unfortunately, life is full of people wishing they would have done something sooner. But until I (or my brother and sister pilots) have ACTUALLY been treated poorly I see no reason to waste the effort and money on such an endeavor.

rotello

What an admission...:erm: That does rather answer my "why?" question. And seems short-sighted to me. So you wouldn't like your pilotgroup to be partners with the company the way the NJ pilots are? Sadly for the furloughed CS pilots, things might have been different if you guys were. Things are always a matter of perspective and I can't help but wonder if your opinions would be different if you were one of the furloughed pilots. NJW

 

[jehtplane]

What an admission...:erm: That does rather answer my "why?" question. And seems short-sighted to me. So you wouldn't like your pilotgroup to be partners with the company the way the NJ pilots are? Sadly for the furloughed CS pilots, things might have been different if you guys were. Things are always a matter of perspective and I can't help but wonder if your opinions would be different if you were one of the furloughed pilots. NJW

Well I am a furloughed CS pilot, I also spent 10 years at the airlines prior to CS. Have been apart of 3 different unions. Spent 5 years of contract negotiations with one, 3 with another, and the last one is going on 6 years of negotiations. CS has treated us very fairly. They did not have to give us 2 months of pay, they did not have to give us unlimited recall rights, and they did not have to communicate anything with us, but they did. CS is a great company that is having some struggles, like every other company. Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones and whats good for one company may not be good for another. I am glad everything is rosey at NJ's, good for you, your sympathy for the CS employees, thats great too, Now respectfully I would suggest that you stick to what you know best, and that is what you think is best for NJ's. Unions are not always the answer, CS is not NJ's and NJ's is not CS. That is great that your union and your management team are partners. Your company was founded 45 years ago, CS is 9 years old, I think we will be OK.

 

[Crobar]

Well I am a furloughed CS pilot, I also spent 10 years at the airlines prior to CS. Have been apart of 3 different unions. Spent 5 years of contract negotiations with one, 3 with another, and the last one is going on 6 years of negotiations. CS has treated us very fairly. They did not have to give us 2 months of pay, they did not have to give us unlimited recall rights, and they did not have to communicate anything with us, but they did. CS is a great company that is having some struggles, like every other company. Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones and whats good for one company may not be good for another. I am glad everything is rosey at NJ's, good for you, your sympathy for the CS employees, thats great too, Now respectfully I would suggest that you stick to what you know best, and that is what you think is best for NJ's. Unions are not always the answer, CS is not NJ's and NJ's is not CS. That is great that your union and your management team are partners. Your company was founded 45 years ago, CS is 9 years old, I think we will be OK.

If it wasn't for Netjets union your management could've given you ten months pay instead of just two.. it would've worked out to the same sum

 

[brokeflyer]

the problem isnt the union, or lack of one. The problem is the need for a union in the first place.

Management needs to pay it's pilots, period.

 

[ozpilot]

the problem isnt the union, or lack of one. The problem is the need for a union in the first place.

Yep, Yep. Well said.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Yawn.....

What an admission...:erm: That does rather answer my "why?" question. And seems short-sighted to me. So you wouldn't like your pilotgroup to be partners with the company the way the NJ pilots are? Sadly for the furloughed CS pilots, things might have been different if you guys were. Things are always a matter of perspective and I can't help but wonder if your opinions would be different if you were one of the furloughed pilots. NJW

Yawn.....

Maybe it's because he understands that NJ is footing the bill for all these golden parachutes the union pilots have gotten, and he realizes the reality that all these golden parachutes are expensive, and in the long run all this is going to come around to roost.

For 3 years I've said that the CBA was too expensive and was going to cost pilots their jobs. Now, NJ is throwing money out the window in "good faith" when they could have just as easily furloughed.

It's an incredible gamble, but still a very expensive one. Give it time, let's see how the bottom line continues to fare. If the massive losses continue, the greedy "industry leading" CBA will prove to be the failure I said it would be to the company and its employees. I've said repeatedly that the bar was set too high and set unreasonable expectations within the industry.

The only perspective is one where the furloughed non-union pilot has the potential for a faster financial turnaround than the one that is paying a bunch of pilots to stay away with golden parachutes and not work. It's obvious which company has the potential for a quicker turnaround, and it's not NJ.