More DL Judge Remarks - Interesting...

[Noserider76]

Delta needs to quit wasting money on RJs. Cancel the RJ orders and buy a good 100 seat mainline aircraft. We have already lost 1/3 of our jobs and spent billions of dollars buying airplanes for other companies to fly. It's time to get back control of our product.

 

[Midnight Mike]

Has she done a 180???

No, the Judge has always called it down the line & does not favor sides.

 

[General Lee]

Actually General is right on the money. The Delta MEC is making a grab for airplanes currently on order and on a delivery schedule for ASA. If ALPA remains intransigent, then the airplanes will still come, but in a 70 seat configuration. Note: These quotes come from a Delta pilot source, so I can not confirm their authenticity, but they sound accurate.

MR. GALLAGHER: We'd have to get permission to increase the size of our regional jets from seventy which is the limit in the current ALPA agreement to seventy-nine, and to increase the number of those regional jets -- THE COURT: Okay. And how many -- MR. GALLAGHER: -- from a hundred and -- THE COURT: -- how many seventy-nine-seat planes do you own at this time? MR. GALLAGHER: At this time, Your Honor, ASA which is one of our contract now formally -- now a contract carrier has seventeen CRJ-900s on order -- THE COURT: Well, that don't make any difference to me what you call them, because I don't know what they are. MR. GALLAGHER: Well, Your Honor, these are aircraft that are certificated for up to ninety seats which Delta would propose to fly in a two-class configuration with seventy-nine seats. If we are unable to do that, Your Honor, we will fly them with seventy seats. They will still be flown by ASA pilots at ASA pay rates, but with seventy seats in them instead of seventy-nine. We think that is simply an economic waste when we could generate revenue from that. THE COURT: Well, see, I think that this is what you and the union need to be talking about because this is what the union is not happy with.

Fins,

Just because they were ordered, doesn't mean they met the scope clause provisions. If SkyWest orders some 757s for you too, does that mean it is wrong for us to protest them? Could we not try to secure all of the 757 orders? It was all in the scope clause, and 79 seat airplanes were not and currently are not allowed.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Wil: It isn't about saving Delta. It is about pride, arrogance and greed. Notice that no one is focused on International Code Share, or the 787. Delta has fostered an environment where employee groups are pitted against eachother and the acrimony and hatred is palpable, especially at bases like CVG. I think this will be one of the reasons for Delta's eventual (I was going to write failure, but they are already a failed business enterprise) absence from the marketplace. Instead of finding solutions, Delta and its subsidiaries have legions of managers who work endlessly at shifting blame to their alter ego competitors rather than serving the customers. (This is getting a lot better recently, but it may be a case of too little, too late) Cheers to AirTran. One thing Delta employees seem to agree on is that they like AirTran more than they like each other.

The judge has focused on International code share, lowering block hours, and the 79 seat jet. She said they all have value, and has ordered Gallegher to come up with a costing model for each of those, which he is slow in doing. She won't allow them to be just given away for free, and neither will we.

As far as the 787, I posted that article from the Seattle Observer stating our supposed interest in the 787 one day. That would be great to see a Delta 787 in the line up right behind a DELTA 79 seater waiting to take off. Ah, what a fantasy! I need to run ot the bathroom NOW!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Ok, let me get this straight, the RJ, the bane of the industry and everybody's whipping post is now going to save Delta? A 79 seat aircraft is not going to save the company. After riding on Airtran, I think Delta should be looking at the south side of concourse "C" for guidance.
I truly hope Delta can turn things around and become a vibrant, profitable airline. I just don't see how a 79 seat aircraft will do that. Thoughts? Cheers-

Wil,

I like Airtran's 717 and service too. We shold focus on those too, but we don't know if Delta would negotiate a rate for some 100 seater and then not order it (like our rates for the 737-700 and 737-900---where are those?), and then just get a bunch of 79 seaters for DCI (200) and totally replace our 737-200 flying. Our current 100 seater (actually 105) is the 737-200.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[spinproof]

Except ALPA is your bargaining agent with your employer ASA, a wholly owned subsidiary of Skywest. ALPA is not your bargaining agent with DAL.

Nor should it scope out any other member!

 

[General Lee]

Nor should it scope out any other member!

Remember, Delta has feed, and that is what ASA/SkyWest/Comair/Mesa/Chataqua do for us---provide feed. They aren't supposed to do compete with US. Come on now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ATRCA]

Delta needs to quit wasting money on RJs. Cancel the RJ orders and buy a good 100 seat mainline aircraft. We have already lost 1/3 of our jobs and spent billions of dollars buying airplanes for other companies to fly. It's time to get back control of our product.

Here's a question. Everyone at DAL seems to believe that RJ's are one of the main reasons the company is in dire straights. How is it then that Continental which has more RJ's per mainline aircraft (270 to feed 330) than DAL is doing so well compard to its peers. Real question here, not slinging mud at anyone.

Opinions........

 

[rjcap]

Here's a question. Everyone at DAL seems to believe that RJ's are one of the main reasons the company is in dire straights. How is it then that Continental which has more RJ's per mainline aircraft (270 to feed 330) than DAL is doing so well compard to its peers. Real question here, not slinging mud at anyone.

Opinions........

YOU FOOL !!!!!


If we can't put all the blame on the RJ's and the Regional pilots who can we blame ??????

 

[On Your Six]

Wil,

I like Airtran's 717 and service too. We shold focus on those too, but we don't know if Delta would negotiate a rate for some 100 seater and then not order it (like our rates for the 737-700 and 737-900---where are those?), and then just get a bunch of 79 seaters for DCI (200) and totally replace our 737-200 flying. Our current 100 seater (actually 105) is the 737-200.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Everyone conveniently forgets that Delta currently operates a 100-seater - the 737-200. The E190 shouldn't be such a huge factor given that it contains roughly the same number of seats. DAL management and DALPA should just negotiate rates for the E175 - Air Canada mainline pilots will fly both the E175 and the E190... The precedent has already been set by Air Canada...

 

[General Lee]

On Your Six,

Fins doesn't want us to do that, nor does RJCAP.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[rjcap]

G Lee I don't care what you do. Its your dog and pony show.

The Judges decision should be a real show stopper - whatever it is.

 

[General Lee]

G Lee I don't care what you do. Its your dog and pony show.

The Judges decision should be a real show stopper - whatever it is.

True dat. Fingers crossed.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[spinproof]

Remember, Delta has feed, and that is what ASA/SkyWest/Comair/Mesa/Chataqua do for us---provide feed. They aren't supposed to do compete with US. Come on now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

What? Compete with you? With which airframes do any of those carriers compete with you. How many, less than 100 seat aircraft are parked and how many DALPA pilots are furloughed out of them? You may wish to use the Jeffro Bodine formula " ought from ought leaves....ought!"

First of all that has nothing to do with the fact that a barginning agent that has a fiduciary with dual entities can not in good faith advise one over the detriment of the other.

 

[2000flyer]

Her Latest Judicial Humor????

Judge Beatty has made a few remarks that raised eyebrows, even before the trial started, and the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents Delta's pilots, tried to get her to recuse herself from the case. She reportedly said it was "really weird" that anyone had agreed to pay such "hideously high" pilot salaries in the first place. She also said the only "good thing" about pilots is they must retire at age 60. But in response to ALPA, she said the remarks were just jokes, and declined to step down. Sources familiar with Beatty told USA Today that despite her eccentricity, she's a "brilliant" judge.

DL management must love this woman! I sincerely hope the pilot's attorneys and ALPA can show this dingbat the light of day. Good luck folks!

2000Flyer

 

[fugghedabowdit]

More comments...

*****************

Upon numerous mentions of pay/benefit levels at other bankrupt airlines:


"I don't care what other airlines have done. No one else's finances
are the same as yours. I don't care what others pay. Delta will pay
what it can afford to pay."

*****************

Upon mention of "management flexibility in small a/c (scope relief)


"Scope relief .... in other words, get rid of Delta pilots. I know
what you want to do."

*****************

Upon mention that certain changes would make the company stronger:

"You spent 2.5 Billion buying back your own stock"

But your honor, that was before Sept 11:

"It was still a real money loser."

******************

The Judge said, "An across the board pay cut (like the one proposed)
is particularly unfair to the lowest paid pilots."

But all the other 44,000 employees took a pay cut .....

(interrupting him) "I don't find that persuasive. All those folks
can move to another job. Pilots cannot. They have one skill set and
are stuck with you."

Not necessarily, your honor.

"Well, you fired 6000 a few years ago and they are not lined up
outside your door are they?"

******************

"I don't understand why Delta is throwing darts at its pilots.
You think they are smaller than you, so you can stomp them."

*****************
Upon yet another mention of other airline pay, and of a DL witness who
will testify that, based upon market economics, many other professions
should be paid more than pilots (optometrists, pharmacists, judges,
lawyers)

"You keep telling me about other airlines and other pay. Your expert's
list is meaningless to me."

******************

Gallagher attempts to read excerpt from Duane Woerth spring speech to
show that ALPA is unnecessarily militant and coordinated in fighting
management.

(interrupting him) "So what? You carry a big stick. Let them carry
a big stick. Besides, I don't even know that DL pilots listened to that
letter."

*****************

The judge repeatedly brought up, and would not let go of, the fact that
DL included 6 or so "non-negotiable" items that must be in any final
agreement. These included relief in scope, code share restrictions,
minimum block hours, etc. She first asked where the dollar value of
such items was to be found.

Your honor, these are not cost issues, they are intended to strengthen
our company. They can't be quantified.

"(shouting) Don't tell me these aren't economic items. You better
figure out how to quantify them. This is $ that will come from the pilots'
side of the ledger. "

"If you code share on AF from JFK to Paris, that is taking money
out of DL pilots' pockets."

"If you reduce required minimum block hours, you are taking money
from DL pilots."

"If you remove restrictions on small jets, you are taking money
from DL pilots. Why can't DL pilots fly these 79 seat jets? "

Your honor, that would not be economically feasible in view of their
benefits package.

(shouting him down) "You see? Its money. These are certainly economic
issues."

Jack makes one last attempt to make his point: your honor, these items
are to strengthen the company, and the pilots will have more security
in a stronger company.

"Don't tell me this is to strengthen DL. A stronger DL means DL
gets more money .... and the pilots will get credit for that."

**************
As part of the discussion of these items, the judge did suggest that
one could be non-economic .... the "poison pill" clause in the PWA that
gives ALPA the right to extend or take a pay raise in the event of a
change in control. Attorney explained that an issuance of new stock
upon emergence from Chapt 11 could equate to a change in control and
trigger this provision.

The judge suggests that the parties simply add language exempting such
stock issuance from the items that might trigger the clause, as UsAirways
did. Then you could leave the rest of the language alone.

Your honor, that is a fine suggestion and certainly something that Delta
is willing to consider in negotiations.

Whereupon, the ALPA lead attorney, Bruce Simon, stood and announced,
"Your honor, ALPA has recently made that exact proposal and it has been
rejected by the company".

Much shuffling of feet on the company's side of the room.

**************

DL attorney led CFO Bastian through recitation of finances to illustrate
how desperately DL needed the full $335M from the pilots. Bastian maintained
that ALPA's analysis that DL had not yet taken full advantage of the
Letter 46 was flawed .... because "the airline is smaller now, and we
cannot save all that was intended in that section of Letter 46.

"They gave you the money. Its not the pilots' fault that DL just
didn't spend it. The pilots will get credit for that money."

**************

Finally, the last note that I made prior to recess on Thursday:

Your honor, DL must have the total amount we are seeking ....

"Well, I am not at all sure such an amount is appropriate in light
of the billion dollars the pilots have already given you."

 

[Noserider76]

Here's a question. Everyone at DAL seems to believe that RJ's are one of the main reasons the company is in dire straights. How is it then that Continental which has more RJ's per mainline aircraft (270 to feed 330) than DAL is doing so well compard to its peers. Real question here, not slinging mud at anyone.

Opinions........

I think Continental is doing relatively well because they restructured in bankruptcy in the 90's,were able to shed overhead, and have had a relatively lower wage scale recently. They have also had a strong leader, good management, and offered a good product. Remember, though, they were down to selling parts after 911.

Delta, on the other hand, has spent billions on aircraft for its partner carriers while neglecting mainline purchases. They put 50-70 seat airplanes on point to point routes to compete with a 717 or 737. The CASM difference alone makes that unworkable. With 5 different carriers carrying our passengers its like showing up to a football game and everyone on your team is wearing a different uniform. The passenger gets an inconsistent product but all they know is they bought a ticket on Delta.

Also, air traffic is forecast to increase dramatically in the next 15 years and very few new runways are being built. We're already stepping all over ourselves trying to land too many airplanes on too little concrete.

If I were king I would roll Comair into Delta, reduce redundant management and overhead, shed some 50 seaters, and buy a new efficient 100 seat aircraft. Then we could slowly begin to wean ourselves off our multiple contract carriers and begin to provide a consistent and efficient product. ASA guys and girls could get prefferential hiring in any future positions. Easier said than done, I know, but if there was ever a time to streamline this thing, now is it.

 

[General Lee]

I think Continental is doing relatively well because they restructured in bankruptcy in the 90's,were able to shed overhead, and have had a relatively lower wage scale recently. They have also had a strong leader, good management, and offered a good product. Remember, though, they were down to selling parts after 911.

Delta, on the other hand, has spent billions on aircraft for its partner carriers while neglecting mainline purchases. They put 50-70 seat airplanes on point to point routes to compete with a 717 or 737. The CASM difference alone makes that unworkable. With 5 different carriers carrying our passengers its like showing up to a football game and everyone on your team is wearing a different uniform. The passenger gets an inconsistent product but all they know is they bought a ticket on Delta.

Also, air traffic is forecast to increase dramatically in the next 15 years and very few new runways are being built. We're already stepping all over ourselves trying to land too many airplanes on too little concrete.

If I were king I would roll Comair into Delta, reduce redundant management and overhead, shed some 50 seaters, and buy a new efficient 100 seat aircraft. Then we could slowly begin to wean ourselves off our multiple contract carriers and begin to provide a consistent and efficient product. ASA guys and girls could get prefferential hiring in any future positions. Easier said than done, I know, but if there was ever a time to streamline this thing, now is it.

I think you are correct. Also, Expressjet doesn't only focus on routes covered by LCCs. Yes, I know they compete with Southwest on some CLE routes, and also some Houston routes (WN at Hobby, Coex at IAH--like intra Texas and TUL/OKC stuff), but Expressjet flies to numerous cities in Mexico that no other airline flies to---which can carry a price premium. They also fly their ERJs on some allnighters to capture the businessmen who "want to be there for the morning meeting." I think they fly allnighters from PHX, SLC, DEN, and some Mexico allnighters from LAX. Yes, Mesa also flies allnighters from LAS---but with cheap tickets from gamblers. They use the ERJs well from EWR, which in itself doesn't have much LCC competition besides Jetblue. I think CAL has done a better job placing their RJs on routes that can make money with less LCC competition.

Bye Bye--General Lee