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More DAL furloughs
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DIAMONDDD
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2001
- Posts
- 463
grinder said:
Can I get an AMEN? Been on the street for almost ten months now. At least there are tons of good paying jobs out there. AND, everyoned I talk to just LOVES offering jobs to us furloughed folks.
Interviewer: "I see here that you have been convicted of beating your grandmother with a tube-sock filled with wood screws. Is this correct?
Furloughee: "Yes sir, but she said some really hurtful things that caused me to do it."
Interviewer: "That's fine, no problem. I am sure you had a good reason. Oh wait, it also says here that you are furloughed?"
Furloughee: "Yes sir, I am furloughed from XXX airline but it looks like I have a better chance of getting my hips replaced before I get called back to said airline."
Interviewer: "I'm sorry, we just don't hire furloughed folks."
Humblepilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 200
DIAMONDDD......ROFLMAO
Been there done that and have the tshirt..well except for the beating my grandmother part....my third furlough layoff and it nevers gets easier.
These clowns can read a newspaper...bk or near bankruptcy means recalls are so far in the future its not even a consideration.
Humble
Been there done that and have the tshirt..well except for the beating my grandmother part....my third furlough layoff and it nevers gets easier.
These clowns can read a newspaper...bk or near bankruptcy means recalls are so far in the future its not even a consideration.
Humble
MadDogPilot said:They don't need mainline pilots because so many routes are being flown by RJ's.... Skywest, ASA, Comair, etc. Happening all over....
Ok Maddog, I'll take your bait. It couldn't possibly be because pax are choosing Airtran, JetBlue, ATA, SWA, etc. instead of DAL. It couldn't be that fewer business travlers are flying (our outdated business model is completly dependent on business travlers paying higher fares). It's got to be those evil RJ's, SJ's, Express Jets, whatever, that are causing your pilots to be furloughed.
It also couldn't be your weak scope, the aftermath of 9/11, or DAL management(?) trying to gaing an advantage over your pilots to get something they want (CAL/NWA code share and lower pay rates for the new 100 seat RJ you are going to be getting soon).
No it's the evil RJ, SJ, EJ.
asarjfo
Scheduling Fodder
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 272
C'mon Maddog......haven't you heard that our fearless leader Duane Worthless has now given us the honor of being called "Express Pilots".....I guess that whole Regional name was just bringing us down.
I have been at this now for almost two years and I can't for the life of me figure out why Delta pilots are not putting up more of a fight to make one-list a reality. There are close to 50 vacancies posted at ASA and I have to believe close to the same number at Comair. That would take care of the 75 being furloughed from Mainline.
Isn't it time for everybody to put thier egos in "check" and make a deal that is good for everybody.
When will DALPA realize that times have changed and they need to align themselves with ASA/Comair?
I have been at this now for almost two years and I can't for the life of me figure out why Delta pilots are not putting up more of a fight to make one-list a reality. There are close to 50 vacancies posted at ASA and I have to believe close to the same number at Comair. That would take care of the 75 being furloughed from Mainline.
Isn't it time for everybody to put thier egos in "check" and make a deal that is good for everybody.
When will DALPA realize that times have changed and they need to align themselves with ASA/Comair?
asarjfo
Scheduling Fodder
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 272
Mad Dog,
I was not my intention to make a big deal out of the whole RJ debate...I am getting kind of tired of it to be honest (as I am sure you are too). I am not bashing you for stating fact, I agree 100%. I guess I am frustrated with OUR union. Instead of trying to work something out between the Mainline and Connection carriers, they spend my dues printing a news letter telling me they have found a new way to seperate us. We are now considered "express" pilots, aren't we all just AIRLINE pilots?
RJ's are not going anywhere and I think everybody knows it, my problem is with Delta Mainline (Company..not union) giving the boot to another 75 while ASA hires that many. It just doesn't make any sense to me, but then again I don't have the ALPA crystal ball either.
It seems to me there is a way to make most people happy and employed, and at the same time position Delta to be #1. As long as both sides fight each other, Delta management will contiue to exploit that weakness and use it to thier full advantage.
I was not my intention to make a big deal out of the whole RJ debate...I am getting kind of tired of it to be honest (as I am sure you are too). I am not bashing you for stating fact, I agree 100%. I guess I am frustrated with OUR union. Instead of trying to work something out between the Mainline and Connection carriers, they spend my dues printing a news letter telling me they have found a new way to seperate us. We are now considered "express" pilots, aren't we all just AIRLINE pilots?
RJ's are not going anywhere and I think everybody knows it, my problem is with Delta Mainline (Company..not union) giving the boot to another 75 while ASA hires that many. It just doesn't make any sense to me, but then again I don't have the ALPA crystal ball either.
It seems to me there is a way to make most people happy and employed, and at the same time position Delta to be #1. As long as both sides fight each other, Delta management will contiue to exploit that weakness and use it to thier full advantage.
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
The VP of flt OPs said that their intent was to furlough the full 1400 pilots. An ATL Chief pilot said the original 1700 number was scaled down to 1400 to factor in the retirements scheduled for this year. But, I have one question----if and when we go to Iraq, and many many pilots are called up to fly for the National Guard etc., will there again be a shortage? The Iraq conflict could last for 6 months to 1 year, and Delta has a lot of reservists and Guard guys.
As far as more than 1400 pilots being furloughed, from what the VP of Flt Ops said last fri---(1400) and the ATL Chief Pilot said on
Mon (the same), I don't think the number has changed yet. I hope it doesn't and I hope the economy gets better quick and guys come back to work.
Bye Bye----General Lee
As far as more than 1400 pilots being furloughed, from what the VP of Flt Ops said last fri---(1400) and the ATL Chief Pilot said on
Mon (the same), I don't think the number has changed yet. I hope it doesn't and I hope the economy gets better quick and guys come back to work.
Bye Bye----General Lee
Just some additional salt in the wound for those of us furloughed DAL guys. Looks like the company is positioning for a SECOND force majeure if we go to war with Iraq. The latest bit of kool aid info from the VP for Ops notes that the 1400 is based on current conditions. Don't be surprised if Iraq and increased fuel prices don't give rise to even more.....the hits just keep on coming.
Also, and not trying to throw gas onto a tired thread but the "connection" carriers aren't just flying some of the old mainline routes. I just nonrevved into DCA on a "connection" carrier." Giving up a slot used to be unheard of, now it's just good business.
Anybody need their grass cut?
Also, and not trying to throw gas onto a tired thread but the "connection" carriers aren't just flying some of the old mainline routes. I just nonrevved into DCA on a "connection" carrier." Giving up a slot used to be unheard of, now it's just good business.
Anybody need their grass cut?
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Hopefully Congress will help with gas costs if we attack Iraq (Sen Oberstar did mention that as a possibility), and People will PROBABLY still fly over the holidays---even if we go after Iraq---and after the first two or three weeks when it appears that we are winning overwhelmingly, people won't be as scared.
It is kinda scary, though.
Bye Bye-----General Lee
It is kinda scary, though.
Bye Bye-----General Lee
mainline/regional routes
I keep hearing about "regionals" taking "mainline" routes. The focus here should be on the customers and customer demand. Perhaps put a cap on the frequency that an RJ can go into a city before the larger planes go in--that would possibly be a reasonable scope limit. It's ignorant beyond words to describe a route as "our" route. They are all "our" customers. The best companies will put the best airplanes on the market and make money the whole time. RJ's serve customers for the most part as well as an md-88. To say a company is flying a mainline route-----how ridiculous. It's better to sell 30 seats on an RJ and make a little money than sell 30 on an MD and bleed money. As an example, Delta frequents some markets w/ large equipment. Atlanta---Birmingham AL. In the way most people think, that's a "regional" market and too short of a flight. What misinformation. If enough people go between the two to justify it, put 75's on it. If it justifies putting 8 150 seat planes on it daily (1200 passengers), do it. When demand drops 5%, put an RJ on it and put the 75 in another short run where 10 Rj's a day go to. Perhaps Montgomery AL just in looking at the flight schedule book. I think it's a reasonable answer. In conclusion, they are all our customers--- Let's try to take their money and profit rather than transport them and lose money. That would be a great start toward returning the Delta pilots to the air, and providing a great future for the subsidiaries, until we can all get along better amongst ourselves.
I keep hearing about "regionals" taking "mainline" routes. The focus here should be on the customers and customer demand. Perhaps put a cap on the frequency that an RJ can go into a city before the larger planes go in--that would possibly be a reasonable scope limit. It's ignorant beyond words to describe a route as "our" route. They are all "our" customers. The best companies will put the best airplanes on the market and make money the whole time. RJ's serve customers for the most part as well as an md-88. To say a company is flying a mainline route-----how ridiculous. It's better to sell 30 seats on an RJ and make a little money than sell 30 on an MD and bleed money. As an example, Delta frequents some markets w/ large equipment. Atlanta---Birmingham AL. In the way most people think, that's a "regional" market and too short of a flight. What misinformation. If enough people go between the two to justify it, put 75's on it. If it justifies putting 8 150 seat planes on it daily (1200 passengers), do it. When demand drops 5%, put an RJ on it and put the 75 in another short run where 10 Rj's a day go to. Perhaps Montgomery AL just in looking at the flight schedule book. I think it's a reasonable answer. In conclusion, they are all our customers--- Let's try to take their money and profit rather than transport them and lose money. That would be a great start toward returning the Delta pilots to the air, and providing a great future for the subsidiaries, until we can all get along better amongst ourselves.
I think people are misinterpreting the observation. Its not an argument about what the best equipment is for a particular route, its a discussion about people losing their jobs. In essence, Delta is outsourcing its flying for cheaper labor. Makes perfect business since. Why pay me $100 an hour to fly my MD-88 into DCA when you can pay a fraction of that to the guy flying an RJ. This outsourcing is further developed through code shares, such as the DAL proposal with NWA and Continental. Where you stand is where you sit, though. I no longer have a job and no one else in the aviaiton community (with a few exceptions) will interview me because I'm furloughed from a major carrier. I don't begrudge the RJ guy one bit. More power to 'em. They're working and I'm not. What I am saying is that the industry has changed so dramatically in the last year that what was once an highly sought after and bargained for slot into a major eastern hub is now being sourced by what has traditionally been termed a "connection" carrier. The company's verbiage not mine.
In essence, we all lose. There can be no upward mobility with layoffs. I won't get my job back until DAL has shrunken capacity enough to warrant it. The RJ guy who desires to move on to what was once a "major" carrier can't do so until I get my job back. The only guy that's genuinely happy is the guy at a smaller, connection carrier who is happy to stay where he's at. Or, the entry level guy who can now catch on at a regional that otherwise would not have had that opportunity. The flying public is getting what essentially is the same service as before at a reduced price and with a slightly reduced comfort factor.
It's no longer an emotional argument about who's equipment is better or who's hiring now versus later. The industry has changed for ALL of us. SWA guys, for example, won't get the contract they truly deserve because of the problems at DAL. UA and AA. For better or for worse, if you're a professional pilot, you're affected.
In essence, we all lose. There can be no upward mobility with layoffs. I won't get my job back until DAL has shrunken capacity enough to warrant it. The RJ guy who desires to move on to what was once a "major" carrier can't do so until I get my job back. The only guy that's genuinely happy is the guy at a smaller, connection carrier who is happy to stay where he's at. Or, the entry level guy who can now catch on at a regional that otherwise would not have had that opportunity. The flying public is getting what essentially is the same service as before at a reduced price and with a slightly reduced comfort factor.
It's no longer an emotional argument about who's equipment is better or who's hiring now versus later. The industry has changed for ALL of us. SWA guys, for example, won't get the contract they truly deserve because of the problems at DAL. UA and AA. For better or for worse, if you're a professional pilot, you're affected.
~~~^~~~
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 6,137
Passengers do not have the "choice" between an RJ and a MD88. If it were not for the RJ the MD88 route would simply be cancelled with no replacement service. The cost per seat mile and operating economics make these airplanes as different as a 737-800 and a 777.
Even so, passengers have been chosing based on cost and convenience (time) of service. As you have noticed, "frills," like meals on a three hour flight, are relegated to the history books. Based on time constraints, the RJ is a winner, not only for its greater speed, but increased frequency. Passengers don't seem to care whether they are on a B727, an RJ, or a 757. In most cases people today just view transportation as a commodity - a bad trend fueled by Delta's own insistance to market their services over the web where comparison shopping boils down to price.
An interesting side note - looking at this from a pure economics perspective is that the 100 seat jets that are talked about on this board make no sense. With two CRJ200's & a 700 you can park three airplanes per gate. The CRJ900 (too long) and Airbus (too big a footprint) do not allow the ramp space utilization at the only Delta base that turns a profit, ATL.
ALPA is finally beginning to understand that RJ's produce the exact same seat miles that MD88's do and are trying to "take" the airplanes through jets for jobs schemes. That might be effective at Delta, but it would require the realization that to Delta management "a dollar is a dollar." DALPA will not make that concession until 51% of the seniority list is out. The senior guys that control the bargaining are not about to talk concessionary, at least not yet.
For the Connection pilots, ALPA's inability to be proactive has been a Godsend. Poor leadership at ALPA National has been much more effective at removing restrictions on RJ flying than the RJDC could have ever hoped to be. Maybe it is politics and the fact that the senior guys are insulated from the blood bath.
Even so, passengers have been chosing based on cost and convenience (time) of service. As you have noticed, "frills," like meals on a three hour flight, are relegated to the history books. Based on time constraints, the RJ is a winner, not only for its greater speed, but increased frequency. Passengers don't seem to care whether they are on a B727, an RJ, or a 757. In most cases people today just view transportation as a commodity - a bad trend fueled by Delta's own insistance to market their services over the web where comparison shopping boils down to price.
An interesting side note - looking at this from a pure economics perspective is that the 100 seat jets that are talked about on this board make no sense. With two CRJ200's & a 700 you can park three airplanes per gate. The CRJ900 (too long) and Airbus (too big a footprint) do not allow the ramp space utilization at the only Delta base that turns a profit, ATL.
ALPA is finally beginning to understand that RJ's produce the exact same seat miles that MD88's do and are trying to "take" the airplanes through jets for jobs schemes. That might be effective at Delta, but it would require the realization that to Delta management "a dollar is a dollar." DALPA will not make that concession until 51% of the seniority list is out. The senior guys that control the bargaining are not about to talk concessionary, at least not yet.
For the Connection pilots, ALPA's inability to be proactive has been a Godsend. Poor leadership at ALPA National has been much more effective at removing restrictions on RJ flying than the RJDC could have ever hoped to be. Maybe it is politics and the fact that the senior guys are insulated from the blood bath.
Last edited:
ivauir
SNIKT!
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2002
- Posts
- 1,476
a bad trend?
Just curious why you think this is so bad? It seems to me that this is true in part because more people are flying more often. That means more jobs. Of course not all those jobs will be mainline widebody jobs, but airlines exist to provide transportation, not great jobs for pilots. It is just my .02 cents and I don't want a flame war, but if I understand your post I think your thinking is a little out of touch with the times: sure I'd love to fly a 747, but I'd also like to captain a connie. People don't care about inflight means, movies or widebody planes. They just want to get where they are going, cheap, ontime and for minimal hassle. If we can provide that service, we'll grow, if we try to make the customer fit some idea we have, we'll be the next amtrack.
Just curious why you think this is so bad? It seems to me that this is true in part because more people are flying more often. That means more jobs. Of course not all those jobs will be mainline widebody jobs, but airlines exist to provide transportation, not great jobs for pilots. It is just my .02 cents and I don't want a flame war, but if I understand your post I think your thinking is a little out of touch with the times: sure I'd love to fly a 747, but I'd also like to captain a connie. People don't care about inflight means, movies or widebody planes. They just want to get where they are going, cheap, ontime and for minimal hassle. If we can provide that service, we'll grow, if we try to make the customer fit some idea we have, we'll be the next amtrack.
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