More ASA mediation sessions

[Stifler's Mom]

crjskipper....I'm with you. We've made gains in this contract, especially in QOL. We've got a much improved scheduling and reserve section (which at the time negotiations started most ASA pilots claimed was the most important section to them) duty rigs, minimum day, commuter clause, and a bonus program offered. I would like to see these gains, along with some binding scope or job protection ----- AND GET IT DONE! People on both sides of this need to know, ALPA National is now driving this ship, and steering our officials into leading us to slaughter! Call your rep and let them know how you feel, or they are going to continue this push for our industry leading trophy contract in their desire to enlist Skywest and Colgan pilots!

Isn't SCOPE the major hang up for management? They simply don't want any language like that in the contract.

 

[79%N1]

That may be true, and I am willing to walk out over that. Not that it would matter, because if they are so unwilling to give it, the writing is on the wall! I am not willing to walk over ALPA's proposed payrates. Perhaps we could get the job protection we need, and get to the QOL improvements we have already gained, if we came down to more reasonable rates. Remember, there is money to be made in rigs and bonuses!

 

[601Pilot]

Nothing will happen until the ASA pilots start to help themselves. Delta will not tolerate a slow-down. It would be in their best interest to get our contract signed. If Skywest Inc. could find enough pilots to replace us they would, but they can't. We have to slow it down. Write it up, taxi slow, and stop using cell phones. We will have a contract within a week! This opportuniy will not last long.

Exactly! Unfortunately, too many people are single-engine taxiing, calling multiple times for services, etc. If I were management, I would drag these negotiating out forever. They have no incentive to sign anything and we are definitely not giving them an incentive. We just go about doing the same job everyday for the `02 rates and they keep getting their bonuses. It's a win-win for them. Not too many of our pilots actually care; Joey doesn't care, Alan doesn't care, etc. They just stomp their feet and raise he-ll on this board and then do their job like nothing is wrong. David Behncke must roll over in his grave nightly knowing these pansies are members of his once proud union.

 

[sweptback]

I know they're reading this. What's on the table is not concessionary, it's just less than expectations. Get some scope, and wrap it up!

As a former insider you realize that we're not just going to "get" scope. You can't buy something that is not for sale.

You are doing everybody a disservice by suggesting that if we lowered our pay demands a bit, accepting pay so low that we would be at the bottom of the industry, the company would give us scope in exchange. I know you want to advance your agenda, but to suggest that the company will just give it to us for 3% of our pay (just pulling a number out of my hair) is absolutely wrong.

I have news for you: the company will not give us scope unless we pry it out of their hands. You can look at the fact that they're not even engaging us in the discussion, they're just outright rejecting it. If SkyWest gives us scope, then the whipsaw is dead. They're not going to give up something that powerful for a few bucks. We're only going to get it in the form of a last-minute deal at 11:59 on the 30th day.

 

[John Pennekamp]

As a former insider you realize that we're not just going to "get" scope. You can't buy something that is not for sale.

You are doing everybody a disservice by suggesting that if we lowered our pay demands a bit, accepting pay so low that we would be at the bottom of the industry, the company would give us scope in exchange. I know you want to advance your agenda, but to suggest that the company will just give it to us for 3% of our pay (just pulling a number out of my hair) is absolutely wrong.

CM?
Agenda? And which agenda whould that be? My only agenda is looking out for the ASA pilots, as I always have. I simply used to voice my feelings in private.

No, instead of parroting rhetoric, how about explaining how my proposal is "accepting pay so low that we would be at the bottom of the industry"? Are you even aware of what our table position is on the -700? Educute yourself before you make an ass of yourself publicly next time. We are asking for almost a 20% raise over 3 years on the -200! I surely hope you're not the CNC member I think you are!

I suggest we sell the "industry leading" -200 rate (plus retro) we have on the table for scope. That's all.

I have news for you: the company will not give us scope unless we pry it out of their hands. You can look at the fact that they're not even engaging us in the discussion, they're just outright rejecting it. If SkyWest gives us scope, then the whipsaw is dead. They're not going to give up something that powerful for a few bucks. We're only going to get it in the form of a last-minute deal at 11:59 on the 30th day.

Well if you can somehow get us a release, then that may be true. But all of Alpa's tricks seem to have been exhausted. It's nut cutting time, and we the pilot group need top take matters into our own hands if the MEC won't move this process along. This stalemate must end and it will only end when we stop the senseless fight.

I agree that Jerry won't "give" us scope. But we can buy it for the 10-20 million we were asking for in a -200 raise plus retro. As for the whipsaw, it hasn't done any good, and Jerry knows that. We've been whipsawed for 5 years and have neither taken concessions nor bought airplanes (unlike our neighbors to the north).

 

[regionalcap]

CM?
Agenda? And which agenda whould that be? My only agenda is looking out for the ASA pilots, as I always have. I simply used to voice my feelings in private.

No, instead of parroting rhetoric, how about explaining how my proposal is "accepting pay so low that we would be at the bottom of the industry"? Are you even aware of what our table position is on the -700? Educute yourself before you make an ass of yourself publicly next time. We are asking for almost a 20% raise over 3 years on the -200! I surely hope you're not the CNC member I think you are!

I suggest we sell the "industry leading" -200 rate (plus retro) we have on the table for scope. That's all.



Well if you can somehow get us a release, then that may be true. But all of Alpa's tricks seem to have been exhausted. It's nut cutting time, and we the pilot group need top take matters into our own hands if the MEC won't move this process along. This stalemate must end and it will only end when we stop the senseless fight.

I agree that Jerry won't "give" us scope. But we can buy it for the 10-20 million we were asking for in a -200 raise plus retro. As for the whipsaw, it hasn't done any good, and Jerry knows that. We've been whipsawed for 5 years and have neither taken concessions nor bought airplanes (unlike our neighbors to the north).

What is normal for pilots to get for retro? A buddy of mine was a first officer at express jet. He got about 10,000 and that was as an f/o. Do you think pilots are going to be willing to give up 10 to 20 grand in retro after almost 5 years of negotiating? I think it will be tough to get 100%, but I have a feeling guys wouldn't give it up completely. It doesn't look like we are that far apart on the 700. They could nail that one down pretty quick. The 200 rates could come down a little too. However, as far as money goes, you make good credits if you have decent rigs. Ask any of the AirTtran guys and they will tell you that. It is a shame that only two dates are scheduled. They should sit down for a week and hammer it out. Lock them in the room .

 

[JoeMerchant]

We just go about doing the same job everyday for the `02 rates and they keep getting their bonuses. It's a win-win for them. Not too many of our pilots actually care; Joey doesn't care, Alan doesn't care, etc. They just stomp their feet and raise he-ll on this board and then do their job like nothing is wrong. David Behncke must roll over in his grave nightly knowing these pansies are members of his once proud union.

Behncke's been rolling over since ALPA allowed it's members to compete for flying within a brand. What kind of union would allow it's members to bid against one another for flying within a brand? Something is wrong, and to fix it will admit that ALPA has been a complete failure when it comes to scope.

Even our old 70 seat rates are the highest in the DCI system.... just wait for the Mesa and Pinnacle 900 rates.... take another swig of that Herndon koolaid and tell me again why this is all my fault...

 

[ASARJMan]

I suggest we sell the "industry leading" -200 rate (plus retro) we have on the table for scope. That's all.

Skywest has the "industry-leading" 200 pay rates right now. Although I could live with the company's currently proposed 200 rates, I think a little more would do it. Retro for all the company stalling, and loss of COL still wanted by me. Scope too. We're one of the top regionals out there, and we need compensated acoordingly. I not saying at the very top, but close to the top for sure. But that's me, and how I feel about it.

 

[ASARJMan]

.... take another swig of that Herndon koolaid and tell me again why this is all my fault...

Joey no one really cares whether it's your fault or not, or if you even exist. You're irrelevant, boring, and self-centered. Enjoy all your houses/boat, while you can.

 

[601Pilot]

Behncke's been rolling over since ALPA allowed it's members to compete for flying within a brand. What kind of union would allow it's members to bid against one another for flying within a brand? Something is wrong, and to fix it will admit that ALPA has been a complete failure when it comes to scope.

Even our old 70 seat rates are the highest in the DCI system.... just wait for the Mesa and Pinnacle 900 rates.... take another swig of that Herndon koolaid and tell me again why this is all my fault...

We all know ALPA has a problem with how it handles Scope; you don't have to tell us the same story everyday!

And it is your fault is all you do is biatch on this board and then fly your ATR on-time just like the company wants you to do.

 

[ASARJMan]

And it is your fault is all you do is biatch on this board and then fly your ATR on-time just like the company wants you to do.

Joey has to. He has all those mortgage payments on his beach condo, mtn home, boat, and a couple of homes south of the airport. Not to mention carpayments.

 

[ohplease!]

Joey no one really cares whether it's your fault or not, or if you even exist. You're irrelevant, boring, and self-centered. Enjoy all your houses/boat, while you can.

dude, you just went from sounding dumb to sounding dumb AND jealous.

 

[ASARJMan]

dude, you just went from sounding dumb to sounding dumb AND jealous.

Sorry Mr ohWhiner. I should have stated, except for ohcrap, he's Joey biggest backer? That better for you? These boards are dumb, so what's your point little one?

 

[scarlet]

ALPA National is driving the bus !! So they can run to Skywest, Colgan and say look what we got them. The email (ALPA-Local) sent out last week showed all Reps in Denver trying to get support for the Skywest guys. I DON'T CARE about SKYWEST guys---GET OUR CONTRACT FINISHED !!!

Calling for a RECALL to get rid of these guys !!!
Why doesn't the Neg. team fly a line when there has been nothing going on for months, and we are paying them 90 hours to work Tuesday thru Thursday on the internet at the alpa office? Just curoius? Why would they want to settle it??

 

[VeeOne]

Pennekamp-

I agree completely with your post. It is time to cut the emotional baggage and get down to business. Punishing LaBroke isn't going to happen- he's got his money and is set. We are simply cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Our best hope is to get on with a second course of action- throw a TA out there and let it either get passed or turned down by the pilot group. If it sinks and doesn't pass, it only strengthens our argument and possition for the NMB. Why is everyone so scared of this. I spent a month flying with a very well informed ALPA officer and he pointed out many times that Comair lost their fight because it got emotional- are we going to make the same mistake?

No offense to Joe, but we need a figurehead to rally the troops to back the tossing of a TA to the pilots along with scope. It would be great to have someone to rally behind that had truly fought for the pilots. What we need is a voice of reason and you have illustrated this. Poor Joey has great points, but no credibility with the pilot group- Sorry Joe........

CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVES TO TELL THEM HOW YOU FEEL!!! The numbers for Newie, Utley, Tomlin, etc. aren't top secret- MAKE IT HAPPEN and give them an unbiased opinion (something relevent other than the crappy Mr. Wilson Poll).

 

[Sinca3]

crjskipper....I'm with you. We've made gains in this contract, especially in QOL. We've got a much improved scheduling and reserve section (which at the time negotiations started most ASA pilots claimed was the most important section to them) duty rigs, minimum day, commuter clause, and a bonus program offered. I would like to see these gains, along with some binding scope or job protection ----- AND GET IT DONE! People on both sides of this need to know, ALPA National is now driving this ship, and steering our officials into leading us to slaughter! Call your rep and let them know how you feel, or they are going to continue this push for our industry leading trophy contract in their desire to enlist Skywest and Colgan pilots!

You people are STUPID! Call any of the MEC reps and ask them what we are fighting for!! I assure you they all will concede that we are not getting an industry leading contract.
Management has really done a fine job of splitting this pilot group and getting people seeing and thinking what they want.
Bunch of pansies.....

 

[Tarzan]

You people are STUPID! Call any of the MEC reps and ask them what we are fighting for!! I assure you they all will concede that we are not getting an industry leading contract.
Management has really done a fine job of splitting this pilot group and getting people seeing and thinking what they want.
Bunch of pansies.....

Hmm, I've talked with them and it was all about MONEY and scope. The company has already given us trips in the new contract. That's worth alot of money. Managment hasn't told me anything, I've looked at whats been offered form both sides and I'll take what's on the table plus some scope.

It never ceases to amaze me but I never hear anyone on the crewroom talk to other people like that.

 

[Sinca3]

It might of been a bit harsh, but I bet your´ve never been around me in the lounge or at work for that matter. I say it how it is and have taken my fair share of grief for it too.....from both sides!
I am amazed to watch the change in attitudes from people on this board. They are burn it down die hards then they get scared enough and they are falling into the companies game plan.
I have volunteered with ALPA and been a good employee for the company all at the same time. I hate unions and feel that they benefit poor employees, but have seen the good in them also (especially with management like ASA´s)
There is a middle ground that both the company and the union have that they will meet in....both are playing the negotiations game to the fullest. I feel that the union has been much more honest and up front with me than the company when I ask the hard/blunt question. If I don´t like the answer I get I let that person know.
As for who you´ve talked to about negotiations.....I´ve talked the the MEC chair and Vice chair, also talked to the 2 junior negotiators over the past 2 months. Their answers to me, I believe are honest and make sense. I go into these questions with an open mind, so I can get the whole picture..hopefully!!!
I am rambling here so will end with the hope that more people at ASA will actually get involved instead of bitching on here or to others that can´t do anything about it. Talk to someone in the union that actaully knows what is up....MEC chair, vice chair, or a negotiator. Let tham know exactely how you feel and ask the pointed question....judge for yourself if you think they are blowing smoke up your a$$.

 

[Tarzan]

If you talk to other face to face as you do here... Kudos. Only you really know.

I've spent some time on the phones as well going to office to talk face to face as well. I intend to do more of it. I refuse to sit here and whine about this online without doing my part.

For the record, I know the MEC believes we can get the money. DN made a pursuasive arguement as to why they believe it will go. I believe we may as well but it will spell the demise of this company. I still think the demanded pay rates as well as the retirment/insurance can be traded for scope. The duty rigs now will be a great increase in credits claimed for a month. It can suffice until the next contract once we have some protection from our parent company.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Feb. DOT statistics for cancellations - percentage of flights cancelled:

CMR: 10.61%
MESA: 7.43%
Pinnacle: 6.36%
ASA: 5.35%
Skywest: 4.89%

Now what were you saying?

I was saying our on time perf sucks. That's one aspect of performance and that's still about 50 flights a day cancelled. Does it matter that we are a few better than the others?

 

[sweptback]

For the record, I know the MEC believes we can get the money. DN made a pursuasive arguement as to why they believe it will go. I believe we may as well but it will spell the demise of this company. I still think the demanded pay rates as well as the retirment/insurance can be traded for scope. The duty rigs now will be a great increase in credits claimed for a month. It can suffice until the next contract once we have some protection from our parent company.

So you think demanding pay rates equal to CHQ, Eagle, or Expressjet on the 50-seat jet would mean the end of ASA? Because that is exactly what we are asking for, not industry leading in any way.

You should educate yourself a bit on the open issues. We're not as far apart as you think, so trading away things like retirement or insurance would really gain us nothing.

 

[Tarzan]

So you think demanding pay rates equal to CHQ, Eagle, or Expressjet on the 50-seat jet would mean the end of ASA? Because that is exactly what we are asking for, not industry leading in any way.

You should educate yourself a bit on the open issues. We're not as far apart as you think, so trading away things like retirement or insurance would really gain us nothing.

I do take time to educate myself and not just swallow whatever the union or company tosses out as gospel. I do not believe the other guys have duty rigs though. That equates to significant pay raise. I find it out that nobody talks about this aspect when the pay issue comes up.

 

[VeeOne]

So you think demanding pay rates equal to CHQ, Eagle, or Expressjet on the 50-seat jet would mean the end of ASA? Because that is exactly what we are asking for, not industry leading in any way.

You should educate yourself a bit on the open issues. We're not as far apart as you think, so trading away things like retirement or insurance would really gain us nothing.

I hope equal is what we are pushing for because if it is greater and we are depending on CHQ or the others to raise the bar above us to make us average, this is nuts. I don't want to put our future in the hands of someone else- besides, they will get the same treatment (years of negotiations until they pull out the big stick in the form of a strike vote). How are our requested pay rates on the 50 in comparison to SkyWests 50 rate? I wonder what their rates look like per hour on the 70/90 compared to ours. How agressive have we been in our persuit of scope, or is that for last following the pay?

I sincerely hope you are right- that we ARE closer to a contract than I think. With many of the die- hards I talk to we are miles apart and we are shutting this thing down next month. I just want to get this over with and get this thing signed.

 

[79%N1]

You people are STUPID! Call any of the MEC reps and ask them what we are fighting for!! I assure you they all will concede that we are not getting an industry leading contract.
Management has really done a fine job of splitting this pilot group and getting people seeing and thinking what they want.
Bunch of pansies.....

So, my opinion makes me stupid? Your rants are emotional, on what you want, and not what we may get....or even the consequenses of getting what you want! Look, I simply stated what I think is fair, and obtainable. Pushing for more, delaying further costs us in what we have gained. (Not that I think or even said what the company is currently offering is fair or acceptable!) I, personally, don't think 100% retro is obtainable, nor do I wish to prolong this over that issue! We can agree to a signing bonus, and try to get a favorable bonus plan (aka Skywest's plan) coupled with higher rates in a new contract, duty rigs, min day, etc... and start making up our money now.....rather than push, delay, and wait for something we may not get 6 months or a year from now! Start doing some math. Add up what you could make in the next 6-12 months with an increased pay rate, rigs and a bonus program (coupled with the value of the QOL improvements we have already gained) over delaying for a full retro, or a payrate out of line with industry ave that triggers Delta and SKYW to begin to tranfer our flying! The key is many of you think that it cannot happen, and IT CAN! It's about value. I want to get it now, and think the total value to us is greater than holding this up another year to fight for something that won't make up for what we are losing right now.

Ps. When you look at the ALPA table for comparing us to industry ave. it is so convenient they put only those higher like Express Jet, Eagle, Skywest (50 seat only) and CHQ, but don't include Mesa, Pinnacle and Comair to get a true look at where we stand truely in the industry, and DCI especially. Take a look.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

Lets just face it, we are done. The only recourse we have is to strike, and it ain't going to happen. The company has won. Just listen to the radio on the ramp. Every sh1t eater here calls on the ground, asks to verify their spot, asks why their spot isn't open, why can't we get another spot. It just shows that the majority of the pilots here don't have a clue as to what is going on. They are all about themselves. Talk a good game, then just fold when forced to take any action! What a bunch of puzzies!!!!!!!!!!!

The company has control and can and will do whatever the hell they want. There isn't anything we can do except use ALPA as a good insurance policy for some sort of job security if we fvck up!!!!!!!!

We are done!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dick