More 700s on the way for ASA & Skywest

[General Lee]

So now it is OK to lower the bar just to get airplanes, hasn't CHQ, MESA been doing this for years, no offense to you guys, and getting blasted for it?

Jetblue's management set the rates for the 100 seaters, and that will affect you guys too. And, those larger RJs will replace our 737-200s at CVG and ATL. We should fly anything that will directly replace them.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PSPFAWILL]

SkyWest CRJ 700 (UA Side) have 66 seats, 6 F Class, 16 Economy Plus and remaining regular coach.

 

[ReportCanoa]

SkyWest CRJ 700 (UA Side) have 66 seats, 6 F Class, 16 Economy Plus and remaining regular coach.

Probably with one lavatory. Correct? That would be annoying.

 

[Salty Pirate]

Wow, you are a spazz. You can blame Jetblue and their management for setting the rates for 100 seaters and below. The thing is, when we get them, our pilots will have the opportunity to bid up to larger planes. Those RJs you are talking about would be replacing our 737-200s, and that doesn't sound like an RJ to me, does it dumba$$? You can't debate worth krap. Go home junior and play with your XBOX.

And, if our pay goes down, your pay will eventually follow.


Bye Bye--General Lee

what's left to debate, you wrote it you self, " we would jump on flying 90 seat aircraft for mesa rates." Straight out of your pie hole!!!!! If I don't smell a whore now I don't know when I will. And once again the classic response " you can't debate me" thats all you ever say, debate the fact that you are willing to be mesa's bitch----------Dingleberry

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Salty,
What is a Cheyanne?

 

[180ToTheMarker]

So now it is OK to lower the bar just to get airplanes, hasn't CHQ, MESA been doing this for years, no offense to you guys, and getting blasted for it?

The difference (if the DAL guys secure ALL flying above 70 seats) is that in 4 or 5 years when the amendable date rolls around, mgmt won't be able to put an RFP out to several airlines all trying to undercut eachother to get Connection flying. DALPA can negoiate pay rates (for all they're airplanes) without fear of being undercut by all the regional guys. Right now, the most important thing is to secure the flying.

 

[ASADFW7]

The flying, who is doing it and where the planes are going is not decided by regional pilots, so get off our backs. All I can do is vote on a negotiated pay rate that is it. If Delta wants to send planes someplace it is up to them to negoitate where they go within their pilot contract. If they decide they want relief they will attempt to negotiate a change. Otherwise all the wet panties in the world will get you no place without an agreement.

 

[PSPFAWILL]

Report - you are correct. 1 lav and galley on the UA side (hasn't really been a problem, which surprised me), 2 lavs and 3 galleys on the DL side.

 

[Salty Pirate]

Salty,
What is a Cheyanne?

its a turbine navajo

 

[propsarebest]

Mark my words...

CRJ-900's are ON THE WAY. They are going to be delivered with 70 seat interiors, 12 F class seats and the rest coach.


A little birdie told me

 

[79%N1]

To whom?

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Yea, what percentage of Delta pilots feel that way, and exactly how many of them would vote for that? Just wondering.

79%

I had this exact same discussion with a Mesa pilot. I made the same arguments as GL and our pilots voted to get the 90 seat EMB's on Mainline (US Arways).

I didn't have a chance to talk to all 1900 AWA pilots but ALL of the pilots that I did speak to said they would vote yes.

When he says that more than 51% of the Delta pilots would vote in favor of bringing that flying to DL mainline I believe him. He's probably spoken to quite a few of them.

You sound like one of those bitter "lifers" who's stuck at a regional. Your argument really has no foundation.

 

[rtmcfi]

Salty,
What is a Cheyanne?

One who dislikes Crows, but is not totally opposed to black labs. (for supper)

 

[Fly-n-hi]

The flying, who is doing it and where the planes are going is not decided by regional pilots, so get off our backs. All I can do is vote on a negotiated pay rate that is it. If Delta wants to send planes someplace it is up to them to negoitate where they go within their pilot contract. If they decide they want relief they will attempt to negotiate a change. Otherwise all the wet panties in the world will get you no place without an agreement.

Sorry, bro. You're wrong. Mainline pilots will have a say in where the larger airplanes fly. Like I said in my previous post we secured 90 seat flying here at AWA/AAA.

 

[enuffalready]

79%

I had this exact same discussion with a Mesa pilot. I made the same arguments as GL and our pilots voted to get the 90 seat EMB's on Mainline (US Arways).

I didn't have a chance to talk to all 1900 AWA pilots but ALL of the pilots that I did speak to said they would vote yes.

When he says that more than 51% of the Delta pilots would vote in favor of bringing that flying to DL mainline I believe him. He's probably spoken to quite a few of them.

You sound like one of those bitter "lifers" who's stuck at a regional. Your argument really has no foundation.

suckers... you guys are all falling for the ruse that pilots costs are everything... in order for Mainline to get those, they will have to agree to fly them for BELOW regional wages. Don't forget, mechanics, gate agents, stews, everything is more expensive at mainline, not just pilots. If the mainline guys want to fly 90's for $40 an hour as FO's I say go ahead. I will get a chuckle when I see him walk out to the plane knowing it

Again. the delta pilots will only strike if they throw out the contract, which they won't, just a scare tactic, so when they agree to just void parts of it, the delta MEC can save face. You guys are all fooling yourselves if you think that any captain or senior FO will shut down and liquidate a 100k plus a year job for the 90 seaters, despite what GL says. These guys have NO EMPLOYABLE JOB SKILLS. what else will they do. You can huff and puff all you want, but these guys have families, mortgages, cars, etc and they aren't gonna do it. they can talk all the sheet they want but at the end of the day, ain't gonna happen


and yes, I am one of those lifer regional guys... wanna compare tax returns?

Uh oh, this is where some guy comes in and says, "who cares" and "go take your money and buy a clue".. the same people that apologize for GL when he says "My 76'", or " I make 50 zillion times more than a skywest guy".. or somthing brilliant like that...

 

[Fly-n-hi]

suckers... you guys are all falling for the ruse that pilots costs are everything... in order for Mainline to get those, they will have to agree to fly them for BELOW regional wages. Don't forget, mechanics, gate agents, stews, everything is more expensive at mainline, not just pilots. If the mainline guys want to fly 90's for $40 an hour as FO's I say go ahead. I will get a chuckle when I see him walk out to the plane knowing it.

There are two things that your shortsightedness keeps you from seeing. First, if mainline gets the planes we will eventually negotiate better pay rates. You regional boys never will.

Second, here at the new US Airways/AWA, for example, when you fly the 90 seat EMB you are at the bottom i.e. smallest equipment an lowest pay. When you fly the 90 seater at Mesa you are at the top i.e. largest equipment and highest pay. That's as good as it's gonna get at Mesa but at US Airways/AWA you can only move up.

Let me ask you this...if the 90 seat pay is going to be the same at the majors as it would be at the regionals then why would you want that flying to go to the regionals? Again, here at US Airways/AWA you will be able to bid up to larger and better paying equipment.

Now I realize that not all regional pilots want to move up to the majors but I think that the overwhelming majority of regional drivers would like to have a mainline seniority number.

Frankly, regional airlines should be limited to "regional" equipment and in my opinion if the plane says US Airways/AWA on the side of it it should be flown by AWA/AAA pilots, whether it's an A330 or a Dash-8.

Why you think regionals flying for $23 an hour is a good thing I will never understand.

 

[enuffalready]

You regional boys never will.

Second, here at the new US Airways/AWA, for example, when you fly the 90 seat EMB you are at the bottom i.e. smallest equipment an lowest pay. When you fly the 90 seater at Mesa you are at the top i.e. largest equipment and highest pay. That's as good as it's gonna get at Mesa but at US Airways/AWA you can only move up.

Now I realize that not all regional pilots want to move up to the majors but I think that the overwhelming majority of regional drivers would like to have a mainline seniority number.

Frankly, regional airlines should be limited to "regional" equipment and in my opinion if the plane says US Airways/AWA on the side of it it should be flown by AWA/AAA pilots,





Why you think regionals flying for $23 an hour is a good thing I will never understand.

OK, where do I start.... regional boys... ooh you got me there...

contrary to what GL says about the gallup poll he takes every day, I do not speak for other ASA guys, but for me, ASA is the final stop, so I ask you in return, why would I not want to have bigger planes at my airline?

regional planes, regional equipment, what the heck are you talking about. Planes provide lift, that's it. The silly notion about mainline vs regional is by design. Keeps the regional nitwits hopes up that if they just take this flying for less, get their 1000 jet PIC, that they too can one day fly the big iron for big pay. This same mentality created the entire fiasco in the first place when mainline guys wanted nothing to do with RJ's.

AS far as getting the flying in house, then raising the wages.... keep holding your breath. As we become a more and more global economy, your pay is going to go down, not up. Fuel will stay high for the forseeable future and the US carriers are only being held up by the lucrative international routes, and that won't last forever. But hey, at least your 90 seater says US AIR... because that is what's important.....brilliant

 

[Jon Rivoli]

What if a well managed regional is able to grow into something more, with larger airplanes and a nationwide route structure; 48 states, a half dozen Canadian destinations and Mexico and the Caribean too? What if it grows to a size to where it is no longer dependent on "Major" partners? Can't do it with 50 seat RJ's, but 70 and 90 seaters? Throw in something in the 120-130 seat range and you got yourself an airline. Then Delta can go on strike and after liquidation they will have a place to send their applications.

 

[enuffalready]

a regional will never grow to be a national. they rely too much on other airline passengers to provide logistical and financial support. Make no mistake. without DELTA, ASA is gone... but in their ashes, someone would come in ( insert branson or someone else) and buy the name, gates, etc and start the whole process over. Just like, TWA, PAn Am, Eastern, etc...

it doesn take zero passenegrs to shut down an airline.. if you run 50% loads, you're done. Without passengers from their mainline counterparts, no regional would survive or even attempt to...

 

[DrunkIrishman]

GL-

By your own argument, replacing a/c should be flown by mainline, the seventy seaters should be flown by mainline. There are many routes where MD-88's are replaced by two or three CR7's. What say you?

The only way to fix this is through onelist! The more you b$tch about who should fly what at who's op certificate, the more you lose out on unifying and battling mgmt's successful erosion of our profession.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

OK, where do I start.... regional boys... ooh you got me there...

contrary to what GL says about the gallup poll he takes every day, I do not speak for other ASA guys, but for me, ASA is the final stop, so I ask you in return, why would I not want to have bigger planes at my airline?

regional planes, regional equipment, what the heck are you talking about. Planes provide lift, that's it. The silly notion about mainline vs regional is by design. Keeps the regional nitwits hopes up that if they just take this flying for less, get their 1000 jet PIC, that they too can one day fly the big iron for big pay. This same mentality created the entire fiasco in the first place when mainline guys wanted nothing to do with RJ's.

AS far as getting the flying in house, then raising the wages.... keep holding your breath. As we become a more and more global economy, your pay is going to go down, not up. Fuel will stay high for the forseeable future and the US carriers are only being held up by the lucrative international routes, and that won't last forever. But hey, at least your 90 seater says US AIR... because that is what's important.....brilliant

Oh, I'm sure you're an authority on global economics. Do you care to cite your sources...and BTW your crashpad roomates friend who works at the GO is not a credible source.

Our pay has gone down...and we have you (the regionals) to thank for that.

Lighten up francis, "Regional boys" was not intended as an insult. Get some thicker skin.

Trust me, I know that you don't speak for any ASA guys. I came from there and I know the pulse at ASA as well as you. Everyone, and I mean everyone that I keep in touch with at ASA wants to move up to a major. I only spoke to a very small number of people there that were content staying at ASA...usually they were the old guys, the really senior ones, or scabs (usually they were total A-holes, too).

You shouldn't get bigger planes at your airline. Why? Because your airline exists at our expense, that's why. ASA is not a stand alone airline. No one buys a ticket on ASA...they buy tickets on Delta. You exist because of Delta...and the only reason you have grown as much as you have in the last 8-10 years is because some freckled face kids fresh out of Flight Safety Academy or Embry Riddle think its great to be flying jets...even at $20-$30 an hour. Take a good look at what happened to Independence. If you ever tried to be a stand alone airline the same thing would happen to you.

If you want to stay at a contract carrier for the rest of your career than that's up tp you. But don't sit there and tell me that you should get bigger airplanes to fly our passengers around. You'll get what we turn down. Remember, you fly for a feeder.

I agree that regional airlines vs mainline is by design. This actually supports my argument. If "planes produce lift, and that's it" as you say then why shouldn't mainline be flying all of them? The answer is that you are willing to fly them for peanuts and if we want them back we will have to fly them for peanuts.

For instance, if Boeing had marketed the 717 as the Boeing Regional Jet then the 717 would be flying at ASA, Mesa, or wherever...just because it is called a "Regional Jet". This is why it is important to secure flying at the majors. Where will it end?

The majors definately made a mistake when they allowed the regionals to capture any of the jet flying. Hopefully we can reverse that. Here at AWA/US Airways we've begun to do that.

 

[79%N1]

General Lee.........Is that you????

 

[enuffalready]

Oh, I'm sure you're an authority on global economics. Do you care to cite your sources..

Our pay has gone down...and we have you (the regionals) to thank for that.


You shouldn't get bigger planes at your airline. Why? Because your airline exists at our expense, that's why. ASA is not a stand alone airline. No one buys a ticket on ASA...they buy tickets on Delta. You exist because of Delta...

Take a good look at what happened to Independence. If you ever tried to be a stand alone airline the same thing would happen to you.

If you want to stay at a contract carrier for the rest of your career than that's up tp you. But don't sit there and tell me that you should get bigger airplanes to fly our passengers around. You'll get what we turn down. Remember, you fly for a feeder.

I agree that regional airlines vs mainline is by design. This actually supports my argument. If "planes produce lift, and that's it" as you say then why shouldn't mainline be flying all of them? The answer is that you are willing to fly them for peanuts and if we want them back we will have to fly them for peanuts.


The majors definately made a mistake when they allowed the regionals to capture any of the jet flying. Hopefully we can reverse that. Here at AWA/US Airways we've begun to do that.

My knowlege of global economics....... put down the ALPA mag, stop drooling on the MAXIM and pictures of GL's hot wife and maybe read the WSJ or IBD.. you might learn something

I already said that without delta ASA woud be gone..go read my post 2 or 3 above here.... not rocket science...

Your passengers? Just goes to show why I say most airline pilots have no employable job skills....I will be sure to make sure all the passenegrs write thank you letters for allowing them to spend their money to get from A to B

All planes at mainline... funny.. u said you came from ASA but now want to essentially put them out of business.. oh, no wait.. not out of business, just fly what you say when you say and how you say it...again supporting my argument.. once a pilot gets his... screew the other guy....senior to junior guy... always has been always will be

And yes, you are right. there will always be some pimple face riddle kid who will a fly jet for $20 per hour, but you know what they say about those who live in glass houses..... What is worse... a 21 yo kid flying an RJ for $20 an hour or a proud furloughed 45 yo US AIR MAN doing it for $45?

I do not begrudge you for trying to get all jet flying back, but I do think you are foolish to think you can. I will fight to get bigger planes at my airline.. .why? for the same reason you want flying at your airline.. because it benefits you/me.. again not rocket science..

And I'll be sure to look for the next time you critique GL and his global economic knowledge when he starts spouting his spin about michelle burns this, fuel prices that, younger pilot group, lower leases, all we are asking for is southwest plus one tenth of one percent...blah blah blah.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

My knowlege of global economics....... put down the ALPA mag, stop drooling on the MAXIM and pictures of GL's hot wife and maybe read the WSJ or IBD.. you might learn something

I already said that without delta ASA woud be gone..go read my post 2 or 3 above here.... not rocket science...

Your passengers? Just goes to show why I say most airline pilots have no employable job skills....I will be sure to make sure all the passenegrs write thank you letters for allowing them to spend their money to get from A to B

All planes at mainline... funny.. u said you came from ASA but now want to essentially put them out of business.. oh, no wait.. not out of business, just fly what you say when you say and how you say it...again supporting my argument.. once a pilot gets his... screew the other guy....senior to junior guy... always has been always will be

And yes, you are right. there will always be some pimple face riddle kid who will a fly jet for $20 per hour, but you know what they say about those who live in glass houses..... What is worse... a 21 yo kid flying an RJ for $20 an hour or a proud furloughed 45 yo US AIR MAN doing it for $45?

I do not begrudge you for trying to get all jet flying back, but I do think you are foolish to think you can. I will fight to get bigger planes at my airline.. .why? for the same reason you want flying at your airline.. because it benefits you/me.. again not rocket science..

And I'll be sure to look for the next time you critique GL and his global economic knowledge when he starts spouting his spin about michelle burns this, fuel prices that, younger pilot group, lower leases, all we are asking for is southwest plus one tenth of one percent...blah blah blah.

Sure. Hope you enjoy ASA.

I guess it would help your case if more ASA pilots agreed with you...but they don't.

You're right, though. Someone will get screwed in the end and I don't mind saying that I hope its you and not me.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Our pay has gone down...and we have you (the regionals) to thank for that.

You shouldn't get bigger planes at your airline. Why? Because your airline exists at our expense, that's why.

But don't sit there and tell me that you should get bigger airplanes to fly our passengers around. You'll get what we turn down. Remember, you fly for a feeder.

The majors definately made a mistake when they allowed the regionals to capture any of the jet flying. Hopefully we can reverse that. Here at AWA/US Airways we've begun to do that.

Yep it's all the regionals fault. Glad we got that straight. Or could it be that deregulation dramatically altered the airline environment? Taking it a step further could it be argued that payscales and workrules that trace their roots to the pre-deregulation era were simply not sustainable when unlimited LCC's entered the marketplace?

ASA and other regionals do not exist at your expense as you claim. The regionals exist because your pilot groups and union leadship were too proud and too arrogant to figure out that they should never let any flying get contracted out. You didn't want your squadron buddy getting out of the military to fly anything smaller than a DC-9. That's why regionals exist. You didn't want the flying. Your leadership lacked the foresight to figure out that managment might eventually look to have larger aircraft flown by these Metro operators. Is it the fault of regional airlines that your union leadership lacked foresight?

Now you say you're reversing the regionals taking over jet flying. That's total BS. You've chosen to simply underbid the regionals. That's the same thing the regionals did to get the business in the first place. I have no problem with you underbidding regionals to get the aircraft on your property. But just keep in mind when you give away the farm to get the flying that employment at your airline will not be too appealing to senior regional captains. A regional captain in his mid 40's is probably not going to jump ship to take a paycut that will take close to 10 years to recover from. A young guy in his 20's or early 30's might see some benefit to eventually moving to mainline and flying a 90 seater for sub Mesa wages in the hope of eventually working his way up towards larger aircraft.

You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. Guys like you are part of the problem. You need to lose the attitude and the superiority complex. Flying an RJ really isn't much different than flying a narrowbody aircraft at mainline. Flying for mainline doesn't make you a better person. Attitudes like yours do way more harm than good. Keep pulling that kind of crap and you'll find guys at the regionals saying "screw you buddy, we're going to do what we can to get larger aircraft and better opportunities at our carrier rather than wait around to get hired and deal with some prima donna like you."

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Go get 'em Dave!

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

...time to rethink.

They're coming, regardless of the current rhetoric here (re: SKYW 2005 10-K, p.4). Whether for DAL/UAL or a to-be-announced partner, there are 17 -900s coming to SkyWest Inc. While I would agree these would likely replace 732 flying, if DAL (or whoever they're going into service with) cannot fly them profitably (that means all infrastructure concerns, not just pilot wages), then they are best not flown there. Market economy exists for all players here: the regional response to major scope is lower cost; network response to regional incapacity affords opporunties to seek other markets.

While I understand the need for scope in the short- or long-term, it is highly analagous to keeping market share--a business ideal that proves more detrimental that focusing on quality, competitiveness, innovation and a host of other factors. Majors excel at somethings: consistently operating thinly yielded routes relative to their cost structure is not one of them. The line is blurring between networked and regional carriers...


http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/793733/000110465906016557/a06-2947_110k.htm

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Go get 'em Dave!

Like shooting fish in a barrel Jon. Like fish in a barrel.

SKYWRJGUY has some great points too. Of course he's pretty close to having PhD added to his resume so I expect some intelligent posts from him.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We would jump on it. It is better to get the aircraft now and be able to get higher wages during the next round, rather than lose the aircraft forever, like the 70 seaters.


Bye Bye--General Lee

And the chequered flag drops on the race to the bottom.

The same was said at Mesa, and Comair, and at US Air, blah, blah, blah. General, you are are coming in garbled and stupid.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I already said that without delta ASA woud be gone..go read my post 2 or 3 above here.... not rocket science...

ASA / Skywest owns the gates in Atlanta now. If Delta were to vanish, you can bet somebody would want to fly out of the World's busiest airport. Sure it would hurt, but without Delta, we would have greater opportunities.

Candidly, we are rapidly approaching the days when no one will really cares what the Delta pilots think. General, and his 10%, can threaten, bluster, demand, stop their feet, picket, what ever - does anyone think it changes economic reality? Leo set the altitude alterter at sea level and decended into the Rockies. The pilots have been trying to steal the contents of the liquor kit. Those who could grabbed a bottle and ran. They have much greater problems than whether or not ASA gets replacement jets for their ATR72's that are coming off lease. Delta said to dump the t-props and replace them, so that is what we are doing. The order did not come from the Delta MEC. Like someone else said, the problem is not the pilot wages, the the flippin G.O. Delta pilots could fly the airplanes for free, but they can not make it productive enough to support the rest of the infastructure that comes with a "real" pilot job.

And isn't it just like Delta to dump and airplane that burns 1/3 the fuel of an RJ? Delta buys the fuel since it is cheaper for them to purchase it than to buy it through a contract with their feeder. You would think Delta would be all about saving gas, but you would think a lot of things about the decisions made in the puzzle palace.