million dollar question

[down2mins]

I realize this is the question everyone asks at one point in their career, but it's worth a shot at some solid feedback. I'm looking to build time (yes, I know, just like everyone else...). Happy to pay my dues and all that, just looking for some unique opportunity on the side of instructing to build total time and maybe multi if I'm lucky. Looking for something in the OH, KY, MI, IN, PA area. Info is appreciated! Thanks!

 

[RichardRambone]

Contact sales people and see if they could use a ferry pilot.

 

[avbug]

If it's time you want to build, falsify it. Write it in your logbook and don't burden the flying community with another pilot who thinks he's "paying his dues" (you're not), or that wastes his own time and that of his students by using them to pay for the time in his logbook.

Instruct if you're interested in gaining experience and providing top notch instruction to good students. If you're there to build time or "pay your dues," you're there for the wrong reason, and part of the problem, not the soloution.

Build experience, not time.

Two pilots fly the same aircraft for one hour. One lands with an hour of experience, the other an hour of time. Do you understand the difference?

 

[moving2vegas]

Don't be an A$$ avbug. It's only his second post. It's way to early to get bitten by the BUG.

 

[ePilot22]

Whatever...

Two pilots fly the same aircraft for one hour. One lands with an hour of experience, the other an hour of time.

Unless the other pilot was asleep both pilots gained experience. Pitch, power and trim, yeah, a ton of experience... .

Give the guy a break! At least he's not buying a job.

Instruct if you're interested in gaining experience and providing top notch instruction to good students. If you're there to build time or "pay your dues," you're there for the wrong reason, and part of the problem, not the soloution.

Now this I can agree with, well, except I think it's solution.

Happy to pay my dues and all that, just looking for some unique opportunity on the side of instructing to build total time and maybe multi if I'm lucky. Looking for something in the OH, KY, MI, IN, PA area. Info is appreciated! Thanks!

Good luck! :beer:


eP.

 

[avbug]

Perhaps it's best to wait until the poster has a couple hundred posts under his belt before providing him with good counsel...but I don't think so.

It's the same counsel I've been posting on this site for quite a few years now. Perhaps you haven't been reading long enough to know that.

Pilots place an emphasis on time. Gotta have time. Gotta build time. I just landed, let's log the flight. Add it up. Now how much time have I got? Hey, Al. How ya been? How much time ya got now? Hey, mate. you sound like you know what you're talkigng about, but how much time ya got? I need to know, so I can know w(h)eather to listen to you, or not. It's all about the time.

It isn't about the time. I've met a lot of high time pilots with whom I wouldn't let my dog fly. I've known a number of much lower time pilots who's experience and understanding far outstrips the others...I'd let them fly my dog, my children, and me.

One pilot flies around, droning about, sightseeing, and "building time." He gets a safety pilot and together they fly five hundred miles in a straight line, both "building time. The safety pilot logs it as PIC...and has just gained PIC "time."

Another pilot gets in the airplane and flies landings, approaches, practices engine failures, concentrates on ground reference exercises, forces himself or herself to ensure spot landings within 50' of the target, and won't accept the practical test standards as a minimum...he or she sets his or her standards higher and flies in order to meet that higher standard. This person lands not only with time, but with experience, and there is a gulf of difference between time and experience.

Both an hour or ten, of "time." But one is experience and makes a better pilot, the other is not.

As a young student, I took worked very, very hard to be able to have the privilege. I could only afford a short hop here and there. I was thrilled every time I left the ground. One day I took a short flight around the valley, and on return, logged it as "joyriding." One of my instructors, a stern gentleman who liked SF school so much he went back and qualified as a Ranger too, ripped me a new one. He told me he didn't ever want to see that in my logbook again. He told me when I went out next, I'd have a plan, and I'd fly the plan, and I wouldn't waste my time. He knew how hard I worked for each second of my existance in that airplane, and he wasn't about to see it wasted.

I was shocked, and hurt. At sixteen years old, it wasn't what I was expecting, but it was also what I needed to hear, and he was right. I concentrated on making every moment count. Before every flight, I made cards that told me exactly what I'd be doing on that flight. How many stalls, what kind, and the results. How many landings, the type, and my standards for them. That practice followed into other kinds of flying. I follow it today.

Even on a fire mission, when everything is fluid, I push very hard to ensure that certain standards are met, I learn something more about myself, the airplane, or the job every time, and it's paid off. I can go to a fire and have ground troops who will stand next to my drop with confidence, or ask me to drop between them, when they'll clear the area for others they don't know or trust. I could go out and toss the load on the fire, or near it, and come home, and collect my paycheck...and possibly log the "time." But it's far more than that, it's an experience, and w(h)eather it gets logged or not, it's NEVER about the time, always about the experience.

If it's the time that's the essence, if that's what's most important, then write it in the logbook. Fake it. Make it up. Parker pen it. Whatever. That's all time is worth. It's just numbers in a logbook. Get in an airplane with me, and I'll know...as will just about anyone who knows what they're looking for or talking about...the lack of experience will show up quickly. It will show up in the way you talk, act, preflight, taxi, fly. But you'll still have time in your logbook. And if you're a time builder, that's probably all you want.

I received counsel by an examiner who signed off my ATP. He told me at the time to falsify my logbook in order to seek a job. He told me I needed the multi engine time, he told me I needed the total time, in order to compete. He told me he gives that counsel to every pilot he passes, and I knew many of his signatories who had gone before...who did that very thing. I met one who claimed all sorts of experience, and certainly had the "time" to back it up...except that I found his picture on a FBO wall showing him soloing a year before. A year to ATP...pretty good I guess for a guy that logged three or four times his actual flgiht time on every hour. The time, so says the Bard, was the thing.

Of course, he was an idiot. He flew like it, too, and when I knew him, he was fired for his flying. No experience, but he had the "time," and thought that was all that counted.

Yes, two pilots can fly the same hour, and one gets an hour of time, and the other gets an hour of experience. Build experience, not time. Don't marvel at that; it's a truth. It's far more than rolling the trim and pulling back and pushing forward. A pilot seeking experience challenges himself, a pilot seeking time logs time. An instructor gaining experience seeks new ways to teach, and is a teacher. An instructor building time feels he's paying his dues, sitting in that seat long enough to get his hours and move on, and is instructing, not teaching.

Teachers operate on a much higher plane than instructors. Teachers expand a students mind and find ways to reach the student according to the students needs, whereas an instructor administers a syullabus, checks boxes on a form, and of course, "builds time."

The industry needs less "instructors," and more Teachers. Instructors often feel their duties are beneath them, and can hardly wait to seek work which is "worthy" of them. Teachers are often humbled at the opportunity to share their craft, and often feel themselves unworthy of the tast. The teacher is always seeking for a better way to share, to reach, to expand, to teach. The teacher still logs the time, but it's about far more than time. Teaching is an experience; a priceless one.

Likewise for the student, many have had instructors who moved on quickly, who didn't care, who were marking time in the cockpit until they could get something bigger, better. Ambition is not a crime, but a failure to give 110% to the student is, or should be. A punishable one. But it's the student that gets punished, by not having the attention and effort given. Too many instructors see students as machnies that they use to pay for their time building efforts, and this is VERY, VERY wrong.

Build experience, not time. There is a world of difference between the two.

No biting required, nor involved. Just the truth. With a little more experience, hopefully you'll see that.

 

[ePilot22]

You don't need me to tell you

Build experience, not time. Don't marvel at that; it's a truth. It's far more than rolling the trim and pulling back and pushing forward. A pilot seeking experience challenges himself, a pilot seeking time logs time. An instructor gaining experience seeks new ways to teach, and is a teacher. An instructor building time feels he's paying his dues, sitting in that seat long enough to get his hours and move on, and is instructing, not teaching.

...very well said!

I can agree with everything you said in your last post. A much better post than the first one. And I'm quite the smarta$$ (or dumba$$) for my first post.

However...

Pilots place an emphasis on time. Gotta have time. Gotta build time.

Do you think this has something to do with the industry? Employers ask for TT, for ME time, not experience.

And for a game of semantics, I think for most, time and experience may mean the same thing. Again I agree with you in that there is a difference between numbers in a book and learning during a flight.

The original poster might have meant build experience, not time. Not sure, but the way it reads and the fact he's looking for "unique opportuinties" kind of implies that experience is desired, not just time.


eP.

 

[C425Driver]

Avbug,

I think what Vegas was saying is your "good counsel" would have been credible if you weren't such a prick to the guy. C'mon, you can't honestly believe that telling him to pencil-whip his logbook is good advice. I understand what you were trying to say but he didn't deserve the response that he got from you. Usually, you're pretty well-spoken but not this time.

C425Driver

 

[RichardRambone]

Good lord relax. I felt and feel the sameway. I wasnt too interested in instructing (although I have found that its fun) and totally agree that we dont need more instructors but teachers, and have taken that sentiment to heart when I teach people. I got very lucky, right place right time and landed a ferry pilot job which allowed me to make a steady income and also occasionally instruct. I think by building time over the past 1 1/2 Ive gained a lot of "experience" and became a much better pilot in the process. Mostly in decision making skills but also flying better. Granted there are purely time builders out there but from the gist of it I think he's interested in gaining experience along with his time. Instructing although very noble IMO rarely takes you outside the training area. I say if he wants to find a job that allows for that extra experience then go for it. Time building is a general term used in lieu of experience. At least thats the way it should be.

 

[avbug]

Do you think this has something to do with the industry? Employers ask for TT, for ME time, not experience.

And for a game of semantics, I think for most, time and experience may mean the same thing. Again I agree with you in that there is a difference between numbers in a book and learning during a flight.

It has to do with a heritage of inexperience. One inexperienced instructor teaching a student who goes on to believe what the voice of inexperience has told him...who goes on to preach the same thing to his own students when he becomes an inexperienced instructor, himself.

Semantics? No. You're right, for most time and experience may mean the same thing, and therein lies the fault. It isn't the same thing, but few have the experience or the wisdom to know the difference...these who do not understand have built time, not experience, and therefore do not know.

C'mon, you can't honestly believe that telling him to pencil-whip his logbook is good advice.

No, I don't believe telling someone to pencil whip time is good advice. That's the reason I provided it; not as counsel, but as counterpoint to illustrate that building time is foolish, too. Pencil whipping and building time go hand in hand...if you're going to build time and that's your goal, then falsify it. Engage in fraud. Play the parker p-51 game. That's all it's worth. One is the other. Time means nothing.

In truth, I've had a lot of employers contact me for my experience, both type and the variety, whereas few, if any, were concerned about my total time. A few never asked. All have looked over my logs at some point, many with great scrutiny, but never to ascertain my totals...most spent the majority of their time looking at the pictures, reading individual entries, and discussing them. Those discussions weren't about my time, but my experience, and it was the experience that got me hired, and kept the job.

Semantics, no. Time and experience are not at all the same thing, and this is something that should be taught and reinforced from day one.

 

[C425Driver]

Avbug,

You are correct, time and experience are not all the same thing. However, they can go hand-in-hand if the pilot makes the most of each hour. When I was a CFI and a charter pilot I was building time, but I was also trying to absorb as much as I could along the way and that knowledge is still helping me today. To me, the bigger numbers in the logbook were the reward for that experience.

I think you're trying to say that time building means nothing unless you make the most of each hour. I agree. In looking at the original post, I see nothing that makes me believe that he is only trying to fill in the columns in his logbook and definitely nothing to deserve the response that he got from you. Actually, he says he wants a "unique opportunity" which leads me to believe that he's not just looking for hours, but experience.

Lighten up, Francis!

C425Driver

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Total Time gets your foot in the door. Total experience gets you the job.

SS

 

[down2mins]

Well, that was something fun to come home from work and read.
Thank you to those who did not take my post in the wrong manner. For clarification, I would like to elaborate on where I am coming from. I am a relatively young CFI, alum of a 141 collegiate program, and now working elsewhere Part 61 on my MEI. I work as a CFI in two flight schools. If you get off by picking on any of the above information, have at it, but that is not why I came to this forum. I am here in hopes of some professional news / networking / advice. I may be young to the industry but certainly take a mature approach to my career pursuits.

To address the replies...
I was assigned to a couple instructors during my primary training who were only instructing to get a Regional's mins and move on. Others were there for the sole enjoyment of flying and teaching well. But most, I experienced, were there for both and there is nothing wrong with that. I love teaching and told myself before I ever got my CFI that I would not be one of those instructors who is just there to log time and half falls asleep in the right seat. I have made it a point to really be there for my students, even if it means doing some extra research about a topic (only natural) or putting in a little extra time "off the clock" to make sure they truly understand a concept. No cutting corners there - that's not my philosophy.

I originally posted that I am happy to "pay my dues" because I did not want to be seen as one of those pilots who is a disgruntled instructor and does not understand why he/she doesn't have that jet job right away. I understand it takes time to get to that point and meant that I am not blindfolded to the reality of the career path that lies ahead. I have quite a few mentors and friends in the industry - from low time freight guys to newly hired regional FO's to checkairmen at various majors - who tell me about their paths and reality of the industry. I know it will take a while for me to get where I need to be for a more advanced job, and I'm fine with that.

In regards to experience vs. time. I want both. For someone such as myself - looking to one day get on with a regional/cargo/eventually major - I won't get anywhere unless I have the combination. And, yes, I am looking for some "unique opportunities". I don't necessarily look to build time by turning on the autopilot and going GPS direct. I am always looking to hone my skills, I like the challenge and it seems only natural to want to continually better yourself. It's self satisfying as well as an asset that will make me more valuable to a future employer. Back to "unique opportunities"... I'm interested in just about anything. But I'm not stupid - I know my limits and am not willing to jeopardize anything by going to some shady little "fly no matter what" operation just because they dangle quick time in front of me. What I really want is something to give me real experience on the side of instructing (not that I'm saying instructing isn't experience...let's not go there) - I want something outside of the flight schools where there is opportunity to fly when it's not VFR and I don't have to do stalls all day. I want some solid IFR, XC, multi experience. Seems that this experience will not only build my TT but give me an easier transition from the flight school to a Regional. Seems impractical to expect to be responsible (well, SIC) for 50 people in the back when all you've done for the last 5 years is VFR work with students in the practice area.

So, to summarize and hopefully not create too much controversy... I want the time as a result of some genuine experiences. I want to get that experience through a variety of means - be it seaplane training, formal aerobatics training, finishing my CFII, and/or some solid IFR,multi, in busy airpace, XC time. I'm certainly up for the challenge!

 

[C425Driver]

Down2mins,

I went to work for a Part 135 company that had a wide variety of aircraft types. I was PIC in Barons, Navajos and a Cessna Conquest and SIC in a B200 - even worked myself into an instructor/check airman position for them. At the same company I also flew Part 91 in Bonanzas, Aztecs, Cherokee 6's and 182's. They also had several seaplanes and I got a little time in them, too. I wasn't there long enough to fly any of the jets but I truly enjoyed the variety that I had. We flew to a wide variety of locations - JFK to grass strips and everything in between. If there is a company near you with a broad spectrum of aircraft types, I suggest applying there. I built my time/experience at a 141 school doing both single and multiengine training and I moved on when I had my 135 IFR mins.

I left the 135 gig to go to the regionals and flew Brasilias and CRJs (I also had to bail from the 135 company because they were going out of business fast!). I left the regionals to get out of aviation completely - I dreaded going to work every day. I loved the airplanes and most of the people I worked with but the lifestyle and b.s. that goes along with the airlines wasn't worth it to me. After three months away from aviation I went back to flying for a company that only goes to FBO's and I am much happier now. I have no regrets about flying for the regionals as I got some great experience there but it's not for me.

Hope that helps you a little. Good luck!

C425Driver

 

[NoPax]

Experience....Central Air Southwest flies out of YIP and GRR in MI. That's some good experience for you, but you'll have to meet 135 minimums first.

Aero Commanders with TKS (anti-ice), and no autopilots. GPS is installed for reference and to aid in situational awareness. You can go there to hone your skills (which if you are a good instructor will be probably lacking by the time you reach 1200 hours)

AirNet would also be another possibility, as they have a lot going on in the OH, PA area, but same thing with the TT. They hire into a paid SIC at around 1000 hours - a former student of mine is working there and is having a blast. Do a year or so at AirNet and you may be able to move into the Lear Jet.

Air Cargo Carriers, I believe is out of MI or OH. They hire 500 hour SICs in their beautiful square airplanes.

There are a lot of opportunities, and I understand where you are coming from. Maybe give Aerial Survey work a shot. You'll get to fly all over the country - my instructor - the one that signed off on all my ratings - is happy doing that now, and making an honest living.

 

[cforst513]

in the process of buying multi time, wouldn't he, i dunno, gain experience as well? or am i just confused...????

 

[avbug]

You are correct, time and experience are not all the same thing. However, they can go hand-in-hand if the pilot makes the most of each hour.

BINGO!!

 

[Dash8301]

Apply at Eastern Cincinnati Aviation (Sporty's). The people are great over there.

 

[down2mins]

Thank you all for the suggestions. If you ever need a copilot...

 

[paulsalem]

Avbug,

Do you think down2mins can go flying with you sometime?