military comp for type rating-Cincy?

Checks

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I went to my local FSDO here in Ohio with a 8710 to get type rating added based on mil comp. They looked at me like I had a third eye in the middle of my forehead.
Instead of going back to them has anyone on here had any luck with their midwest FSDO? I was thinking of driving down to Cincy since Wright Patterson is close to them and I would think they would have a clue about military comp(I will call first). I dont live close to any FSDO right now so driving to a different one is no big deal.

One of the issues my FSDO had was the fact I wasn't a PIC yet in my unit. I have had a left seat checkride though. I know lots of guys who have gotten typed right out of flight school so the PC orders from my unit shouldnt matter.
Can't argue with the FAA
 
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pkober

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When I finished C-130 AC upgrade in 2000, I was told I needed 10 hours of "A" code time before they gave me my type rating. I went to the St. Louis FSDO. That wasn't a problem then because all people who went through left seat training got an AC form 8.

If you went through the new left seat "flight pilot" program you may not be able to get the type until you are checked out as a AC with your unit. Under that program you are not "A" coded until you get checked out at your home unit as an AC.

Some guys were getting the type rating on the beech jet out of UPT when they first started flying the T-1 in the 90's. But the FAA put the kybosh on that because they weren't technically PIC on the aircraft because they were students. It just like how an FAA student pilot can't log PIC, even solo.

Good Luck.

CLAMBAKE
 

CAP10B

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Sounds like an FPC situation.

If you're not an AC (plus 10 hours PIC after checkride), you don't get a type.
 

Checks

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I am an Army guy. Sounds like things have changed at the FSDO's but I know for a fact that down in Alabama they are giving the types out after AQC's still.
 

pkober

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If you can find a FSDO to give you a type it is well worth your time and money to do it.
 

RedDogC130

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If you have an ATP civilian license, you do not need the 10 hours of PIC. If you have a commercial you need the 10 hours of PIC. Look into how they define the PIC time. I believe that they are just looking for sole manipulator time from part 61. For currency and licenses that can count...not just the A code. From the Little Rock FSDO, they are just asking guys to sign a piece of paper saying they have 10 hours. Does not really say under which part they define it as if I remember correctly. Many outs. Like some say, never let a pen come between you and a job....just kidding....mabye
 
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pkober

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It just goes to show that each FSDO is different. I had an ATP when they wanted me to get 10 hours before they would give me the type.

Also FAR Part 61 says PIC is the pilot responsible for the flight. Just sitting in the left seat doesn't make you the one "responsible".


Peace, out

CLAMBAKE
 

RedDogC130

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Well also you can log if you are qualified in the aircraft and sole manipulator. Or something like that...if they want it bad enough they will look it up to be correct. Latttttttttteeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr
 

pilotyip

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My experince was they wanted an offical military record showing A code within the proceding 12 months. But these are the same people who turned me down when I applied for my ATP. At the time I had around 2500 hours total time, but I could not prove I had 500 hours of cross country. All my long flights up to 17 hours always returned to the same place I had just left and that according to the FAA offical I talked to could not be counted a cross-country. I found another inspector with a military background and he signed me off.
 

pkober

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It's the great arguement of logging time for flying jobs.

PIC includes the word "command". Primary time without the "A" code isn't command time. FAR 61 includes "sole manipulator". FAR 1 includes "the pilot soley responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft". Until you're the one standing tall in front of the man if something happens to the aircraft, you're not PIC.

I would be real careful trying to convince anyone that you were PIC when you weren't "A" coded. It only takes one guy on an interview board to think you're trying to put a fast one on him.
 

RedDogC130

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It all depends on how you use the PIC time. You have to count some if you ever need certificates, etc. For application purposes you may not want to use it unless you sign for the plane. But if you apply for SWA it may change your view on PIC. It all depends. That is why a computer logbook is good to create different columns for what you need. I think we beat this one dead. I am out unless someone writes something dumb.
 

Vandal

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pkober said:
When I finished C-130 AC upgrade in 2000, I was told I needed 10 hours of "A" code time before they gave me my type rating. I went to the St. Louis FSDO. That wasn't a problem then because all people who went through left seat training got an AC form 8.

If you went through the new left seat "flight pilot" program you may not be able to get the type until you are checked out as a AC with your unit. Under that program you are not "A" coded until you get checked out at your home unit as an AC.

Some guys were getting the type rating on the beech jet out of UPT when they first started flying the T-1 in the 90's. But the FAA put the kybosh on that because they weren't technically PIC on the aircraft because they were students. It just like how an FAA student pilot can't log PIC, even solo.

Good Luck.

CLAMBAKE
No, and no. UPT 04-13, got T-1 type. Little rock 05-30, c-130 type. Used the "sole manipulator" argument for the 130 type. Just got my permanent card yesterday.
 

pkober

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Vandal said:
No, and no. UPT 04-13, got T-1 type. Little rock 05-30, c-130 type. Used the "sole manipulator" argument for the 130 type. Just got my permanent card yesterday.

Vandal,

Relax and congratulations. Like I said if you can get the type do it. Use the system. I went through UPT in 1994 and things have changed, none of the planes had civilian counterparts back then.

Try going back to your unit and claim you are the Aircraft Commander right out of LRAFB's left seat program. Good luck.

I agree the horse is dead and kicked to the side.

Peace, out

CLAMBAKE
 

Vandal

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pkober said:
Vandal,

Relax and congratulations. Like I said if you can get the type do it. Use the system. I went through UPT in 1994 and things have changed, none of the planes had civilian counterparts back then.

Try going back to your unit and claim you are the Aircraft Commander right out of LRAFB's left seat program. Good luck.

I agree the horse is dead and kicked to the side.

Peace, out

CLAMBAKE

Sorry I tend to be terse on the internet...anyway of course I know I am nowhere near the PIC on the 130...however it is still nice to get the ratings in your back pocket. Just letting people know you can still get em...in fact they encourage you to get the T-1 type out of pilot training, all the squadrons give you a form letter you turn into the FSDO to get it.
 

pkober

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Use the system. If you can get any type rating it's worth it.

Now back to trying to blow my fingers off with fireworks.

Happy Birthday America (I hope that didn't offend anyone!?!).

CLAMBAKE
 

Checks

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I have an email in to John Lynch at the FAA asking his opinion on this whole thing. He writes the FAQ Part 61 for the FAA and those Q&A indicate that if you took a checkride from the left seat then you are entitled to the type irregardless of your unit PC status.
 

Checks

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I got my SA-227 and BE-200 type from a John Lawrence in Birmingham Alabama. Pretty sad I had to go all the way down there. Then again, not a bad deal after all!
 

TankerDriver

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This gets a bit confusing because of the differences between FAA training and military training. The military doesn't base their training off FAR's, so it's kind of hard to interpret. There are alot of conflicts and loopholes when you try to apply military training to FAR's, but here's the way I interpret it, which may or may not necessarily be correct. :D

I'm not quite sure why someone in the military would need 10 hours as PIC in aircraft type to get a type rating on their commercial certificate. I mean, anyone with a commercial certificate can go to SimuFlite, get 30 or 40 hours in a sim and get a type rating. Do they have 10 hours of PIC in type? No. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think you could log PIC in an aircraft requiring a type rating UNLESS you had a type rating, so how the heck could the FSDO require 10 hours of PIC to give you a type rating? I'm abit confused about that.

The FAA says:
§ 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements.

(a) Type ratings required. A person who acts as a pilot in command of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that aircraft:
(1) Large aircraft (except lighter-than-air).
(2) Turbojet-powered airplanes.
(3) Other aircraft specified by the Administrator through aircraft type certificate procedures.

Now, the Air Force does not have PIC or SIC time. We have Primary, Secondary and Other time. Primary time is the time at the controls, whether you're in the left or right seats. Secondary is basically pilot not flying time, again, in either seat. Finally, other time is basically jumpseat time. All of this time adds up to total time. Of course we can assume the Aircraft Commander ("A" code) is the PIC and the Copilot is the SIC. Both however, can log primary, secondary and other time.

The FAA also says:
§ 61.73 Military pilots or former military pilots: Special rules.

(a) General. Except for a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who has been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency, or because of disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who meets the applicable requirements of this section may apply, on the basis of his or her military training, for:
(1) A commercial pilot certificate;
(2) An aircraft rating in the category and class of aircraft for which that military pilot is qualified;
(3) An instrument rating with the appropriate aircraft rating for which that military pilot is qualified; or
(4) A type rating, if appropriate.
(b) Military pilots on active flying status within the past 12 months. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who has been on active flying status within the 12 months before applying must:
(1) Pass a knowledge test on the appropriate parts of this chapter that apply to pilot privileges and limitations, air traffic and general operating rules, and accident reporting rules;
(2) Present documentation showing compliance with the requirements of paragraph (d) of this section for at least one aircraft category rating; and
(3) Present documentation showing that the applicant is or was, at any time during the 12 calendar months before the month of application—

And...

(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who applies for an aircraft category, class, or type rating, if applicable, is issued that rating at the commercial pilot certificate level if the pilot presents documentary evidence that shows satisfactory accomplishment of:
(1) An official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if applicable, as pilot in command during the 12 calendar months before the month of application;
(2) At least 10 hours of pilot-in-command time in that aircraft category, class, or type, if applicable, during the 12 calendar months before the month of application; or
(3) An FAA practical test in that aircraft after—
(i) Meeting the requirements of paragraphs (b)(1) and (b)(2) of this section; and
(ii) Having received an endorsement from an authorized instructor who certifies that the pilot is proficient to take the required practical test, and that endorsement is made within the 60-day period preceding the date of the practical test.
(e) Instrument rating. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who applies for an airplane instrument rating, a helicopter instrument rating, or a powered-lift instrument rating to be added to his or her commercial pilot certificate may apply for an instrument rating if the pilot has, within the 12 calendar months preceding the month of application:
(1) Passed an instrument proficiency check by a U.S. Armed Force in the aircraft category for the instrument rating sought; and
(2) Received authorization from a U.S. Armed Force to conduct IFR flights on Federal airways in that aircraft category and class for the instrument rating sought.
(f) Aircraft type rating. An aircraft type rating is issued only for aircraft types that the Administrator has certificated for civil operations.
(g) Aircraft type rating placed on an airline transport pilot certificate. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and who requests an aircraft type rating to be placed on that person's airline transport pilot certificate may be issued that aircraft type rating at the airline transport pilot certificate level, provided that person:
(1) Holds a category and class rating for that type of aircraft at the airline transport pilot certificate level; and
(2) Passed an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that type of aircraft as pilot in command during the 12 calendar months before the month of application.

61.73 then goes on to list the evidentiary military documents that can be used.

Now, nowhere does it say a military pilot needs 10 hours of PIC to add a type rating to an existing commercial certificate of the same category and class. It says in order to get an Airplane Multi-Engine Land; Instrument Airplane at the commercial certificate level, you need 10 hours of PIC, which to me, doesn't make much sense. Again, my opinion is coming from both sides of the fence, but having gone through both civilian flight training up to my CFII and military Phase I, II, III and weapon system training, I sure as heck think a military aviator, at that point, deserves a commercial, ME, IFR ticket after all he or she has gone through, given he/she passes the appropriate knowledge test.

I also got the T-1A (Beech 400A/Mitsu 300) type rating on my commercial certificate. Now I already had my commercial ticket, so I just gave my $100 to the examiner and got my type rating. For those not familiar with the T-1A program, we got about 120 hours, mostly in the left seat. Not TECHNICALLY pilot-in-command because we were with an IP and had not graduated yet, but we were simulating acting as PIC. Now, I don't know of any civilian type rating curriculums (Flight Safety, SimuFlite, etc...) that give you 6-7 months of training, with roughly 75 hours in simulators and 120 hours in the REAL jet. Could you imagine how much that'd cost? If you can get typed in 20 days after a week of ground school and 40 hours in a sim, I sure as heck think I deserve a type rating after going through the Air Force's program, don't you? Whether I fell through a loophole or worked the system, it don't think I short changed the FAA one bit. At the same time, just about my whole T-1A class got their commercial - Airplane ME Land, instrument airplane certificates through the same examiner without 10 hours of PIC. For the most part, none of us have flown the Beech since. This examiner was an aquaintance of one of the civilian instructors we had for ground/sim training and was making a killing off UPT grads getting their equivelancy ratings. All they had to do was take the knowledge test. There was no requirement for 10 hours of PIC. We took 3 checkrides in the T-1, all from the left seat "acting" as a PIC.

The Air Force also had the "Team" program in T-1's where they let 2, freshly graduated students with their wings, take a T-1 cross country with no IP on board. Now, how does that work? Who's the PIC (aircraft commander??) See what I mean. The military does some wacky things and you can't use the FAR's to make any sense out of it.

I'm flying KC-135's right now and I actually know quite a few copilots with no "PIC" time who've gotten B707 type ratings through the local FSDO by showing them their most current Form 8.
 
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TankerDriver

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pilotyip said:
My experince was they wanted an offical military record showing A code within the proceding 12 months. But these are the same people who turned me down when I applied for my ATP. At the time I had around 2500 hours total time, but I could not prove I had 500 hours of cross country. All my long flights up to 17 hours always returned to the same place I had just left and that according to the FAA offical I talked to could not be counted a cross-country. I found another inspector with a military background and he signed me off.

pilotyip,

Are you talking about the ATP written or the cert? I'm assuming you mean the written.
 

pilotyip

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Wow old post

yes that was for the written, I found an ex-mil FAA insp and he signed me off.
 
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