Midwest will Cease all 717 Ops Nov 3, 2009

[Hose A. Jiminez]

RAH no class, basically equal to scabs or worse.....welcome aboard F9 you are now big boys on the street....what are you going to do to fix things

Sad thing for the F9 guys is that they didnt even have to be part of this whole thing. Stemmler and another captain denied the rest of them healthy raises and a bright future for...? I hope they can toe the line and force Bedford to make RAH a respectable place to work-one that doesnt continue lowering the bar for the rest of the industry.

 

[eaglesview]

I suspect the RAH pilots are doing what is best for the RAH pilots...That is the system WE created.....If the shoe was on the other foot, I don't see anyone looking out for them.

We don't have a true national "brotherhood"...We have a loose association of independent contractors that have to start all over again at the bottom if they change employers....We created this monster and some of you at the top are now surprised by this system that YOU created.

Would you like to talk about a national seniority list and brand scope? If not, then expect more of this....

Folks like you crack me up. You have no idea who I am or what I stand for yet you feel the need to right crap like this. Actally I agree with some, not all, of your views but unfortunatley you usually slip up and show your lack of class and maturity.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Ummmmm, doubt it. DL RJ numbers will be at around 200 total within 2 years from now from what I hear. I think it is going the right direction if that is the case.


Bye Bye--General Lee

That would be awesome, but the fact is that we are still near 700. I cannot see us dumping 500 jets in two years. Maybe down by 200 to 500, but that would be the extent of it.

To do any more we would have to see a WO parked, and two FFD contracts voided. It is quite possible as there are a few that are up next fall, but it would take a lot of work.

Here is to hoping!

 

[Eagle757shark]

Yes this industry is in the state it is today because of the decisions pilots made back in the early 90's. When Delta pilots allowed Comair to fly 50-seat jets for them, the door was kicked wide open. Back in the mid 90's most major carriers (now known as Legacy Carriers) hired mostly military pilots. The majority of the pilots at the legacy carriers at the time were former military. It was not natural for them to accept a 50-seat airplane on property for their pilots to fly. The leaders at ALPA and APA were among the Legacy Carriers. Hmmm, see a trend here.

ALL JETS should have been flown by the mainline carrier regardless of seats. We will fall over each other to get a 747, 777, 767, 757 or Airbus on property. But we will farm off and run like hell from the EMB-145,170,190 type aircraft. WHY? Greed and a lack of vision and the "its all about me" has come back to haunt this industry. Pilots we are our own worst enemy.

Why are we our own worst enemy? It goes back to our initial training. Go to your local flight schools or your pilot farm pools and listen to the mentality. We will invest our lives in training, but it is considered "PAYING YOUR DUES" to accept mediocre conditions to fly airplanes. FLAWED THINKING! So we are stuck with the decisions that have been made. As long as the next guy benefits from someone else's demise, this is the system we have created.

 

[doh]

Could somebody explain the merger process for these two please?

 

[414Flyer]

Yes this industry is in the state it is today because of the decisions pilots made back in the early 90's. When Delta pilots allowed Comair to fly 50-seat jets for them, the door was kicked wide open. Back in the mid 90's most major carriers (now known as Legacy Carriers) hired mostly military pilots. The majority of the pilots at the legacy carriers at the time were former military. It was not natural for them to accept a 50-seat airplane on property for their pilots to fly. The leaders at ALPA and APA were among the Legacy Carriers. Hmmm, see a trend here.

ALL JETS should have been flown by the mainline carrier regardless of seats. We will fall over each other to get a 747, 777, 767, 757 or Airbus on property. But we will farm off and run like hell from the EMB-145,170,190 type aircraft. WHY? Greed and a lack of vision and the "its all about me" has come back to haunt this industry. Pilots we are our own worst enemy.

Why are we our own worst enemy? It goes back to our initial training. Go to your local flight schools or your pilot farm pools and listen to the mentality. We will invest our lives in training, but it is considered "PAYING YOUR DUES" to accept mediocre conditions to fly airplanes. FLAWED THINKING! So we are stuck with the decisions that have been made. As long as the next guy benefits from someone else's demise, this is the system we have created.

Great post. I wonder how many of the major airline pilots on here to blame regional pilots for everything bad in the industry, were either too proud to fly small jets and supported passing them on down, or even paid for their jobs too.

I would even add that almost all of us were told at some point in our training not to worry about pay for that first job, just get the experience. I do not know of people in any other field that tells its up and coming professionals to just take any job and not worry about the pay. I have never passed on that same attitude though, nor did I ever take a bottom feeder job. Anyone who tells any pilot to just take a job and worry about pay later, needs to be flogged. CFIs should be saying the opposite, to pass on dirtbag jobs and hold out for something better, and to have some pride and integrity.

But there is also an unfortunate result of seniority too. While seniority is probably the best system put forth so far, it does encourage people to just try to get hired now and worry about pay and benefits later.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I hate to beat a dead horse but where are the RAH pilots in all of this. There silence is sickening.

Updating their MKE charts.

 

[DOVPILOT]

from BB himself

http://www.entertonement.com/clips/...r-Star-Wars-Episode-V-The-Empire-Strikes-Back-

 

[samballs]

That would be awesome, but the fact is that we are still near 700. I cannot see us dumping 500 jets in two years. Maybe down by 200 to 500, but that would be the extent of it.

To do any more we would have to see a WO parked, and two FFD contracts voided. It is quite possible as there are a few that are up next fall, but it would take a lot of work.

Here is to hoping!

Comair is only just finished with year 3 of a 5 year pounding, 14 A/C in 2010 and I forget 2011 to get us around 68 from 179. They can do it, but I don't have much confidence that they know how to. So far 0 for 2.

 

[samballs]

I'm still confused why they baught Midwest. The company is almost gone, and they can't fight against southwest and others.

 

[GOULET!]

Republic sucks and ALPA sucks even worse.

 

[NuGuy]

That would be awesome, but the fact is that we are still near 700. I cannot see us dumping 500 jets in two years. Maybe down by 200 to 500, but that would be the extent of it.

To do any more we would have to see a WO parked, and two FFD contracts voided. It is quite possible as there are a few that are up next fall, but it would take a lot of work.

Here is to hoping!

Heyas ACL,

The 50 seaters are done. From what I understand, some of the leases are up prior to the end of the DCI provider contracts, and DAL will no longer subsidize the leases. It will be up to the individual lift provider to provide the airfames, which most will be unable to do at current market rates.

So either the wet lease provider (Skywest, RAH, etc) provides the lift at a much lower cost to Delta, or they terminate the lift contract, either of which is a big win for mama Delta.

The wholly owneds are toast from their current size. They're gonna do to Mesaba and Comair what USair did to Piedmont and Allegheny. They're gonna mush them together, shed a lot of lift, and you're going to wind up with an operator that is around 50-60 airframes that is designed to operate short notice schedule changes (hard to do with contracted lift) and nitch markets (someone has to fly to International Falls).

The only lift remaining out of this is the 76 seaters, which is presently capped.

You're dealing with fNWA management. They're like a Casino...win or lose, they're going to put the screws to you...the only question is how much.

Nu

 

[10nCLR]

They not only screwed the pilots and FAs, but also those loyal passengers. Most of all don't forget about all those wonderful customer service agents that worked the frontline. They lost their jobs too, with no real incentive to relocate. They were the first employees who made contact with the passengers. The CS agents were the ones who initially made them feel important when they first checked in. They're the ones who gave out the first impression of that hometown feeling. Then you also have the dispatchers and airport ops working behind the scenes trying to keep the flights running ontime. Then once boarding started, it was the CA, FO and the FAs job to maintain that hometown feel and a wonderful job they did. Their slogan, "Best Care in the Air" died June 23,2009.
I have a indirect but personal connection with Midwest. My mom worked for Kimberly-Clark Corp back in the day and so I was around the culture of K-C Aviation and the early Midwest Express in the late 70's and early to mid 80's at a young age. Sellout Timothy Sucks Hoeksema lived down the street from us in a very modest neighborhood out in the countryside(boondocks)of tiny old Neenah, Wis. I flew on them quite often during those growing years and never had a problem. The company always treated their employees and passengers like family. I have many fond memories but now even though I'm not affected by it directly, I feel bad for all those employees who worked for the past 20 plus yrs building up an airline reputation like no other, one that was born from where I grew up. Then 40 yrs later along comes RAH and its all downhill from here. They sure screwd over the MKE employees. The funny part is, is that they think they can maintain that Hometown airline persona. Good luck. Losers.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Heyas ACL,

The 50 seaters are done. From what I understand, some of the leases are up prior to the end of the DCI provider contracts, and DAL will no longer subsidize the leases. It will be up to the individual lift provider to provide the airfames, which most will be unable to do at current market rates.

So either the wet lease provider (Skywest, RAH, etc) provides the lift at a much lower cost to Delta, or they terminate the lift contract, either of which is a big win for mama Delta.

The wholly owneds are toast from their current size. They're gonna do to Mesaba and Comair what USair did to Piedmont and Allegheny. They're gonna mush them together, shed a lot of lift, and you're going to wind up with an operator that is around 50-60 airframes that is designed to operate short notice schedule changes (hard to do with contracted lift) and nitch markets (someone has to fly to International Falls).

The only lift remaining out of this is the 76 seaters, which is presently capped.

You're dealing with fNWA management. They're like a Casino...win or lose, they're going to put the screws to you...the only question is how much.

Nu

And that takes time. I do not see this being done it two years. I agree that DCI is going to get it handed to them, but I cannot see them shedding 500 airframes in two years. I would be great if they did, as long as we keep our back bone and do not allow one more pound, one more seat or one more airframe! (BTW I think we have the fortitude to do this and will, this is a different Delta and I like it)

As for DCI, I know there are a lot of aircraft that are coming up on their lease terms. Some of them this month! There is little market for 50 seat lift. I agree. It is going to get ugly down at DCI. I forecast a little more than 200 jets in two years. I was thinking we would see 350-425 depending on if the DCI operators played ball and paid for the leases. Some will have to to stay afloat. The question is how long can they successfully do it. I am thinking two years unless some lease companies give them the jets for pennies on the dollar, which may happen because some money is better than no money.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Yes this industry is in the state it is today because of the decisions pilots made back in the early 90's. When Delta pilots allowed Comair to fly 50-seat jets for them, the door was kicked wide open. Back in the mid 90's most major carriers (now known as Legacy Carriers) hired mostly military pilots. The majority of the pilots at the legacy carriers at the time were former military. It was not natural for them to accept a 50-seat airplane on property for their pilots to fly. The leaders at ALPA and APA were among the Legacy Carriers. Hmmm, see a trend here.

ALL JETS should have been flown by the mainline carrier regardless of seats. We will fall over each other to get a 747, 777, 767, 757 or Airbus on property. But we will farm off and run like hell from the EMB-145,170,190 type aircraft. WHY? Greed and a lack of vision and the "its all about me" has come back to haunt this industry. Pilots we are our own worst enemy.

Remember what was going on in the minds of mainline negotiators during the late 80's and early 90's: They were interested in eliminating the B-scales, protecting their pensions, and securing the top end of their pay scales and they thought that scope was an expendable part of their contract. Funny how all the parts of a contract work together somehow and when you jettison one, you leave the rest vulnerable.