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Mesaba's race to the Bottom

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MesabaDriver

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Posts
141
Management's request for cuts puts us at the bottom of the pay and benefits scale for any regional carrier. Things that others sacrificed for, 2 years ago will be wiped out. I find it ironic that the same company that wants to put 130 or so pilots on the street and has threaten to sue furloughed pilots for training costs is offering some type of profit sharing in our new agreement. What will the profits be if no one wants to work here. Mesaba has never been a bottom feeder but managment has no problem turning us into one in order to line their pockets and keep big daddy NW happy. Lets go do some flying for other national and major carriers, since we are going to be one of the lowest paid, why not become whores at the same time. Mesa and Chataqua carry for god knows how many airlines. That E170 that they roll up on the ramp in at MEM sure looks nice crewed by Rebublic or what ever subsidary its it operating it. Although they get paid far less than the should be payed to fly it, we ought to be able to be competitive with our new pay rates if they get accepted. Here is my question to all those out there who fly for a regional that rapes you more and more everyday....If aviation safety is so critical and procedures are so technical, why do we insist on going with the lowest bidder, the least experienced pilots and why do we insist on rewarding bottom feeding regionals with all the flying. I think pretty soon the industry will be filled with nothing but junk like GJ (Trans States black eye), Freedom Jet (Mesa's Black eye). Thank god Mesaba piltos were smart enough to scope Big Scare in Montana to 19 seats. Whos gonna win the next race to the bottom. My vote MAIR and all its pawns. They will just have to race without me and alot of other pilots that actually care whats happens to Mesaba and its employees.
 
Here's a question for you. What, exactly, was your number one reason for joining Mesaba when you began shopping your resume around the regional world.
 
Decent equiptment, good contract, great union representation. Hoped to get in at the begining of growth since we hadnt had any in five or so years figured we were due. Lived in MSP at the time. Just you average surface observatioin reason.
 
I wish you guys the best. I've enjoyed meeting your MEC chairman on several occasions, and he has worked hard to support many of us at other carriers. Unfortunately, your management has no-doubt been taking notes from other management teams on how to tear apart pilot contracts and it seems that they have all of us over the collective barrel. Good luck.
 
MesabaDriver said:
Here is my question to all those out there who fly for a regional that rapes you more and more everyday....If aviation safety is so critical and procedures are so technical, why do we insist on going with the lowest bidder, the least experienced pilots and why do we insist on rewarding bottom feeding regionals with all the flying. .

Are you saying Mesa or CHQ pilots are any less safe than Mesaba's because they are PAID less? When you got your private license, did you ask about the prices or did you go to the highest priced school because in your theory, the more you pay, the better training and instruction you'll receive.
 
Its not about the pilots personally. Its about all pilot groups allowing managment to undercut us. These airlines that allow merger of non union lists inorder to pererve their job and sign TA's with low pay set a standard that all the other regionals follow. Ex. Fredom Jet and Go Jet. Its everywhere. We even had it with Big Scare when we went through our contract. We need to hold the line and say enough is enough.
 
I am sure that Mesa and all the others a safe and qualified. My issue isnt personally with one airline group its with the whole picture.
 
Just look at your fellow employees

Look around at who you are working with. Are they there to better the industry in America or get their minimum time and jump ship(USA). I have given the jump seat to many regional pilots that are here to get the time and get out. They could give a squirt of pee what the future of their or any regional airline could be. They will agree to unreasonable wages and working conditions, just to get the time. If you are planning on staying in this country and would like to have a career in the future, we better stand together. If not I hear that many asian countrys are looking for 474 pilots. So my last jumpseater told me.......
 
Exactely, if we arent careful and stick together we will beocme expendable to the lowest bidder. We will be outsourced and flights will no longer be flown by American Pilots. Just like the flight attendants at NW with flights originating in Asia with Asian attendants. Its only a matter of time till it becomes standard practice.
 
Let's all hold on for a minute and pipe down... Sometimes I honestly have to remind myself to do the same thing. My comments:

1. The lawsuit threat for collecting training costs from furloughed/notified furloughed pilot is real. Are they gonna see any of that money paid? No. FO's, don't pay it.

2. We haven't signed anything. Now is OUR chance to stall on a new contract. Management did it to us on our last one, now it's time to repay the favor. ALPA has NOT received the financial data they've requested from the company in order to even consider concessions.

3. Management's proposal of the other day is ridiculous and management knows that. They're just trying to ruff us up. In addition, they're asking for, say, 20%, in order that we come back with say, 10%. That's not gonna happen here. I don't know of one XJ pilot that will agree to anything over 0%. Too many 6+ year FO's, no career advancement, and they want to take away our slim salary too? Ughh... Nope.

4. Mr. Paul Foley, CEO of MAIR must go. He collects $700,000 per year for "managing" a holdings company that essentially does nothing. His salary is nearly double that of Doug Steenland, of NWA. Why? Would I feel different if Mr. Foley had established new flying for XJ? Absolutely! But last I heard, the only thing he's achieved is acquiring Big Sky, our multi-million dollar thorn in the side. Nothing personal against our Big Sky flight deck brothers.

Just a few thoughts. I would personally urge everyone at XJ to polish up the logbooks and think about other options. I hope it doesn't come to that, but I do hope that our MEC has the marbles to finally say "NO!" and threaten (even if deemed illegal by an 1113c judge) to STRIKE.

MM

Not ONE cent.
 
Foriegn mainline pilots make good money, in fact, give me their pay rates. It's outsourcing jobs that are mainline to regionals at significantly lower pay rates that's the problem; hence the NewCo threat. You can't have a nation wide list of alpa pilots, there will still be pilots and airlines going low cost non-ALPA. You need one solid list at each company with strong scope that prevents them from going to regionals in the first place. If NWA were to put together the list, how long do you think it would take for the other carriers to follow suit. We need to control how pilots get into this business just like doctors do. Then pilots won't be so willing to go out and fly for 17K a year when they know, it won't get them anywhere.
 
I'm not so sure you need a nation wide list but a nation wide contract with the same amendable date.That would be the start.Have to negotiation thu the Air Transport Association or similar that would be a start.Everybody with the same work rules and pay.
 
MesabaDriver said:
Exactely, if we arent careful and stick together we will beocme expendable to the lowest bidder. We will be outsourced and flights will no longer be flown by American Pilots. Just like the flight attendants at NW with flights originating in Asia with Asian attendants. Its only a matter of time till it becomes standard practice.

Actually NW has been outsourcing FA on their Asia routes for a long time. If you hop on their flights originating from NRT to any asia destinations, it usually has more than a few asian FA. Though those FAs are not allowed to do any flying into the states, i.e. "protecting" the jobs of those FA in mainland.
 
I believe there are only 2 "mainland" flight attendants on each flight orginating out of NRT to stations beyond... been that way for years.
 
Yes, but how long before they allow them to touch mainland soil. Trust me if NW can save some money they will find another way around the job security of the current FA's. You think they care about our security or anyone but their own. I would be willing to say in the next ten years if not soon you will see US part 121/129 carriers originating flights to the US from foriegn countries that will hurt American based carriers. Its comming.
 
hey mesabi miner, good post! i agree! How could the delta bankruptcy judge be ready to give Comair a pay decrease to that above us while our company is asking our judge to put us at the lowest in the industry! I have already heard one of my friends at the company say...."at least we will get new jets and be a captain in a year or two" That sort of attitude will be our doom. People, talk to your fellow pilots, we cannot accept any reduction from our last "growth" contract. The company wanted 6 years, i saw we give it to them! I beleive this is a scare tactic, but tehy did a good job, i am lookin at not being a pilot anymore if this or any reduction is in order! those rates would be great for newco huh? amazing the rates go to 110 seats!
 
Thats just it if you agree to fly a/c with 110 seats at 13% less than 50 seats, you guys are NewCo. Management will do whatever it takes to get that flying to Mesaba. All you current Mesaba pilots will get the boot anyway as NWA pilots take those positions. Either way you lose, that why i've been trying to get you guys to side with mainline. If that happens, only some of you will lose, the top guys will have to go to other carriers to survive, while the younger guys will have to ride out the storm a little longer.

NWA piots are willing to go to Mesaba pay rates on NewCo a/c. They believe that if they keep scope they can get their money back easily. Yeah i will be going to NewCo either way, although i'd rather see you younger guys be brought up to the mainline early. Once those young guys hit the mainline list, their attitude towards pay rates will change. The slide will stop.
 
Wheels-up,
Yea it's true. Our joke of a management team wants to hold the 21 pilots they furloughed to a training contract of $21,000 if they find another job. There is a huge question of whether this is even legal. I say FOOK up, if they put those pilots on the street they can hold them to this job.

We are so short of line pilots right now with all the down grades in training and the fo's leaving they are TRYING to junior man every body they can. I don't think they are having much luck!!!

Thanks goes to our MEC and the MECs at express jet and air wisconsin for working out a deal to give our furloughed pilot preferential interviews.
 
With the 50% increase in costs of our health benifits.......I wish i could seek out the cheapest doctor! Too bad they dont advertise their costs! This place sucks!
 
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just out...mesaba is imposing 20% paycuts to all non union employees. effective April 1. I bet the csa's wish they had voted yes on that last union vote. source is mymesaba.com

schmitty
 
oh ya, I forgot... This excludes managment... this is one classy airline. how many people do you think will quit before the holidays? This should be a fun x-mas in DTW.
 
Memo says all salary and non-union folks get 20% paycut effective April 1st. What an April fools joke!

This would include management the way i read it.
 
So lets see Foley is right at 1.3 million...so 20% from that.....o never mind
 
bomberbubba said:
Memo says all salary and non-union folks get 20% paycut effective April 1st. What an April fools joke!

This would include management the way i read it.

I don't work there but I suspect that mgmnt will read it in such a way as to exclude themselves.
 
I should have been more clear. The "Senior leadership Team" will not be taking 20%. I agree with bomberbubba, the day to day managers will be affected.


The funny thing is that our SLT really are only mid level managers for big brother NWA. there only real job is to control cost. All other decisions are made for them.
 
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Nice comment from FOOLEY in the paper today. and this was in reference to pilots and flight attendants!

But Foley said that lower wages are a reality in the airline industry. "There are more than enough people willing to work at the work rules and wage rates that Mesaba has proposed," Foley said.


This next part is encouraging . I think mesaba and MAIR may have bit off more then they can chew. Go get em Tom !!!

Meanwhile, the creditors committee in the Mesaba bankruptcy wants to probe financial connections between Mesaba and its parent, MAIR Holdings, which is not in bankruptcy. The key creditors, including aviation companies and Mesaba pilots and flight attendants unions, have asked the judge to let them subpoena Foley and other top MAIR executives.
"For years, the Mesaba pilots have been extremely concerned about the uplifting of cash from our company to a separate suite of executives" at Minneapolis-based MAIR, said Tom Wychor, chairman of the Mesaba branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA).
Now the creditors have united in seeking more information about the financial relationship between MAIR and Mesaba. Minnesota Twins owner Carl Pohlad serves as chairman of the MAIR board of directors. All of MAIR's profit has been generated by its main subsidiary, Mesaba, because tiny Big Sky Airlines, its other subsidiary, has lost money since it was acquired in 2002, Wychor said.


Here is the entire artical:

Liz Fedor, Star Tribune Last update: December 8, 2005 at 8:22 PM


Bankrupt Mesaba Airlines is attempting to slash its labor costs by 19 percent, the head of Mesaba's parent company said Thursday during an airline conference in New York.
Paul Foley, CEO of MAIR Holdings, said Mesaba must reduce its labor rates to continue providing regional flight service for Northwest, which filed for bankruptcy in September. But he stressed that Mesaba also must have a competitive cost structure to attract flying business beyond Northwest.
Meanwhile, the creditors committee in the Mesaba bankruptcy wants to probe financial connections between Mesaba and its parent, MAIR Holdings, which is not in bankruptcy. The key creditors, including aviation companies and Mesaba pilots and flight attendants unions, have asked the judge to let them subpoena Foley and other top MAIR executives.
"For years, the Mesaba pilots have been extremely concerned about the uplifting of cash from our company to a separate suite of executives" at Minneapolis-based MAIR, said Tom Wychor, chairman of the Mesaba branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA).
Now the creditors have united in seeking more information about the financial relationship between MAIR and Mesaba. Minnesota Twins owner Carl Pohlad serves as chairman of the MAIR board of directors. All of MAIR's profit has been generated by its main subsidiary, Mesaba, because tiny Big Sky Airlines, its other subsidiary, has lost money since it was acquired in 2002, Wychor said.
Foley, during an investors conference, said MAIR has "over $115 million in cash and investments" and "minimal long-term debt." He emphasized that MAIR did not file for bankruptcy but has offered to provide up to $35 million of debtor-in-possession financing to Mesaba.
Wychor argues that MAIR and Mesaba are for all practical purposes one entity, and that the MAIR executives are "playing a shell game."
The Mesaba creditors committee, which wants to recover payments from Mesaba, has formally asked the court to compel MAIR to turn over a massive array of MAIR documents. A hearing on the creditors' motion is scheduled for Jan. 10.
"We will certainly comply with any direction from the court," MAIR spokesman Jon Austin said Thursday. "I think we'd certainly participate in the discussion on the motion, so the creditors committee gets the information it needs without imposing an undue hardship on the company."
Pay cuts looming
Mesaba employees are worried about financial hardships heading their way.
Pilots who fly Mesaba's three plane types are being asked to take 13 to 19 percent pay cuts. Wychor said he has not seen any financial data to justify any level of cutbacks for pilots or other Mesaba employees.
But Foley said that lower wages are a reality in the airline industry. "There are more than enough people willing to work at the work rules and wage rates that Mesaba has proposed," Foley said.
Union negotiators have been told that Mesaba wants to negotiate concessionary agreements by Dec. 19, Wychor said. If that goal is not reached, Wychor said the company is expected to file a motion in bankruptcy court seeking to abrogate its labor contracts.
The other unions at Mesaba are the Association of Flight Attendants, the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association and the Transport Workers Union.
"All employees will bear their share of the burden," Mesaba spokeswoman Elizabeth Costello said.
"The keys for a successful Mesaba reorganization are securing our core business with Northwest, making Mesaba an attractive partner to Northwest for growth opportunities -- whether that is a 50- or 70-seat regional jet -- and a cost structure that allows us to diversify," Costello said.
On Thursday, Foley broached the subject of MAIR or Mesaba acquiring airplanes for non-Northwest flying, but he didn't provide specifics.
Currently, he said, "Northwest is dictating to us what the fleet will be." Northwest has taken nine Avro jets out of Mesaba's schedule and 10 Saab turboprops are expected to be removed next month.

Liz Fedor • 612-673-7709
 
Haha you made the guy a millionaire for all your hard work and he insults you. Even dogs dont bite the hand that feeds them, what dumba$$. Doug stealin said the same thing to us a while back. Yeah go find you 300TT hr pilots and let them fly your airline for free, just make sure you tell the public what your doing.
 
schmitty340 said:
just out...mesaba is imposing 20% paycuts to all non union employees. effective April 1. I bet the csa's wish they had voted yes on that last union vote. source is mymesaba.com

schmitty

If your source is mymesaba, then you are being intentionally misleading. It's not pretty, but it's not exactly a 20% PAYcut either. Here's the entire memo:

December 8, 2005

Dear Fellow Employees:

As you know, Mesaba’s financial condition has worsened dramatically over the past few months, and the purpose of our bankruptcy is to bring our expenses in line with our revenues. We’re looking at all areas of the Company to do this. For example, we’ve negotiated new contracts with a number of vendors to achieve savings and we’re implementing process assessments and improvements such as:
An Operations Performance Team to evaluate on a corporate-wide basis how we can achieve improved on-time performance

Project Superstar to determine the current state of the ground operations in order to provide key best practices and recommendations for improvement in quality, cost, delivery, and safety.

In addition, we have begun discussions with our union leadership at AFA, ALPA, AMFA and TWU for concessions. At the same time, we are finalizing all salaried and non-contract hourly employee costs – the results will include an adjustment to compensation and benefits.

We have analyzed market forces for each employee group while considering the need to be fair and equitable. Based on this information and the Company’s business plan going forward,changes to compensation will vary for different employee groups. Each employee group, however, will realize the same cost reduction total of 19.4 percent. This total will be drawn from payroll, benefits and productivity. At this time, we are projecting an average 7.6 percent reduction in pay for CSAs (individual CSA percentages will be determined by demographics and the individual’s rank on the pay scale) and a 10 percent reduction in pay for all salaried and remaining non-contract hourly employees. These changes will be effective April 1, 2006.

Without fail, we have the smartest and best employees in this industry so it is with deep regret that we must implement these compensation changes. However, the Company’s new businessplan compels us to modify
all costs in order to ensure a successful future. Again, please know the changes are based on the most reliable financial and business planning information available – and all of us will bear our share of the burden.

Thank you for your continued professionalism and support during this most difficult time in our Company’s history.

Sincerely,
John Spanjers
President & COO

People who shouldn't be taking the hit will be. ALPA is on the creditors committee, Wychor needs to make sure the pain is felt all the way to jinglepants himself.

 

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