Mesaba pilots: To flow or not to flow?

[Limeyflyer]

In no particular order:

By the way, no offense to street captains or low-time upgrades. I'm not trying to pick a fight. It's a good opportunity for those who took it but it is really cutting our experience margin especially in the crappy winter weather. Street captains and 300 hour f/o's are not a good combo. But it is our reality.

The street captains that are in the first class of SCA's consist of 3 Pilots from Eagle, 1 furloughed Mesaba( he flew the saab/avro/and RJ) then went to Champion pilot, 1 Piedmont pilot, an 8000 hr freight dog, and 2 corp pilots. None of which are inexperienced by any means. Some do have 121 time, they all have way more time than the 3 month 1500 hr upgrade guys and girls. As for the non 121 street captains, they have plenty of cold weather Midwest, New England flying experience and are all well seasoned. Yes the 121 scene is new for some of us, but some of us have flown with the new 300 hr CFI's new F/O's that have never seen and actual instrument approach, or ice on the boots for the first time. Sure it is an added item on the workload factor, but I feel that we are qualified and we are all looking forward to being a part of this company. How are well trained pilots coming in to help you guys out when you need the pilots cutting your experience margin??? We know what has happened in the company, we respect what you have all been through with the furloughs, no one that I have seen in this group is coming in with a holier than thou attitude, just a positive attitude to work for a good company.

 

[XJohXJ]

Always a pleasure reading your posts, Limey.

Welcome.

 

[Limeyflyer]

Thanks Buddy

 

[Raskal]

Being in the same class as the limey bastard, I have to second his reply for the same reasons. The experience of the street captains should be the least of the concerns right now, and if you happen to run into one of us on the line, just ask, you will probably be pleasantly surprised at the experience levels. Everyone I know is anxious to talk to current captains, upgrades or otherwise.

In my class there is an upgrade I've gotten to know over the past couple of weeks. He openly admitted to having some of the same concerns as you while we were talking over lunch. I respected that a lot, and appreciated the chance to respond. Since then I think his concerns are mostly gone and in turn I've been able to learn some things about the job.

The training department changes/resignations over the coming LOA is what should be a hell of a lot bigger concern. The line the company has taken has caused a reaction that they probably didn't anticipate and will certainly cause more problems than street captains. With the amount of young new hires in the halls, I would be very concerned if all the experienced instructors leave and 6-months-out-of-UND-no-line-experienced people are teaching the kids. That's scary.

 

[MEL'ed]

I agree. The second class of SCA's is just as experienced and is looking forward to being another great addition to the family.

 

[fowingman]

raskal while i might not disagree with your last statements about the instructors, I WOULDNT start to insult the training department while you are friggen student yourself. watch the size of your head, i cant wait to see you on the line, and see how much you walk around as a captain thinking you own the place and only being here for like 6 weeks. what a tool

 

[Raskal]

raskal while i might not disagree with your last statements about the instructors, I WOULDNT start to insult the training department while you are friggen student yourself. watch the size of your head, i cant wait to see you on the line, and see how much you walk around as a captain thinking you own the place and only being here for like 6 weeks. what a tool

WTF? Who's insulting the training department? So far the training I've received is some of the best yet, and the instructors there are probably some of the most patient and dedicated teachers I've come across, especially for systems.

It is those people that I said we should be concerned about suddenly losing.

I'm really not sure where you get the attitude from in my post regarding the training, but obviously it came across wrong.

PS-What's the deal with all the attitude regarding captain/fo around here? Who cares? All the captains have been fo's here or somewhere else, and barring anything unforseen all the current fo's will be captains and at the current rate probably sooner than later. Not to mention, most captains will be fo's again at some point in their careers.

I'm really sick of this little kid-like fo vs. ca thing, which seems to come from people like you. There isn't one capt in my class or any other that thinks they're better than anyone else-the only thing that seperates us is time, that's it. Get over it.

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

Reminds me of an 80's tune..."If I go there will be trouble...If I stay it will be double"....

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

"So, come on and let me know...."

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

"...Should I stay or should I go?"....

 

[woutlaw]

I'm really sick of this little kid-like fo vs. ca thing, which seems to come from people like you. There isn't one capt in my class or any other that thinks they're better than anyone else-the only thing that seperates us is time, that's it. Get over it.

As someone who is neither FO nor captain, that reminded me of a quote:

"For a number of reasons, not the least of which is his eventual promotion to captaincy, he must observe the code of master and apprentice. The rules are fixed and catholic. I am, in all eventualities, supposed to know more than he does, a theory we both secretly recognize as preposterous."

Ernie K. Gann, Fate is the Hunter, Page 4.

 

[Raskal]

As someone who is neither FO nor captain, that reminded me of a quote:

"For a number of reasons, not the least of which is his eventual promotion to captaincy, he must observe the code of master and apprentice. The rules are fixed and catholic. I am, in all eventualities, supposed to know more than he does, a theory we both secretly recognize as preposterous."

Ernie K. Gann, Fate is the Hunter, Page 4.

I read that book a few years ago, and that is a great quote-not to mention very true.

 

[Butters]

How are well trained pilots coming in to help you guys out when you need the pilots cutting your experience margin??? We know what has happened in the company, we respect what you have all been through with the furloughs, no one that I have seen in this group is coming in with a holier than thou attitude, just a positive attitude to work for a good company.

I knew that wasn't going to be taken the way I meant it. I was trying to make a point about the management not to disrespect you. My seven years to upgrade probably doesn't help though that's got nothing to do with you.

First off, Limey - welcome to Mesaba to you and the other street captains. I really mean that and I hope you guys and gals enjoy your new company. Lord knows we do need pilots.

I don't doubt anyone's piloting skill. That's not the issue. The issue is not knowing the company or the airplane. If you came from Eagle or another airline, it probably won't be a big deal. But how can a single pilot freight dog, who has probably never flown in a crew environment, be expected to effectively be the leader of a crew for a 121 company? When a brand new first officer has an attitude or when maintenance control is pushing a bad airplane, what experience does that person have to fall back on?

Again, no disrespect. You all will probably do very well. Please realize I'm not upset with the pilots (you guys). I'm just upset with the company for failing to plan so we are in this situation. I'm also mad at being told they were "only hiring highly experienced first officers from other 121 carriers." That just isn't true. The freight dog you speak of maybe an ace. I, for one, would prefer he or she came from a crew environment. All our other upgrades at least have some time here. For the record, I don't think the 1500 short time first officer upgrades are a good thing either. Six months on property is really all that different than being a street captain.

I hope that your careers here will be good. You all have steep learning curves and not a lot of resources to help you (like no more chief pilots and a fleet manager who knows nothing about the plane), though it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and a great attitude.

Best of luck to you. I look forward to meeting some of you in person.

 

[Butters]

raskal while i might not disagree with your last statements about the instructors, I WOULDNT start to insult the training department while you are friggen student yourself. watch the size of your head, i cant wait to see you on the line, and see how much you walk around as a captain thinking you own the place and only being here for like 6 weeks. what a tool

That's not fair. Raskal was making a statement about the flow and not ripping on the training dept. I agree with what he said. He wasn't being a tool.

 

[avrorj-85]

Don't be afraid to ask questions...

To all the new hire captains, welcome aboard! I can't remember who said it but one of said that you were learning everything you could from one of the Captain upgrades in your class. That is awesome! You can learn almost as much (or in some cases more) from the people that you work with that have actually been in the situations that you will soon find yourselves in on line. To go one step further, while in training you will probably be assigned to an ALPA mentor pilot. Don't forget to use that person as a resource for the same reason.

Once again, good luck and welcome to Mesaba!