Mesaba or Pinnacle?

[Smarta$$]

Just an observation..........

In the late 90's when Express Airlines (now Pinnacle) was in contract negotiations, NWA dismantled their operation in MSP, gave the flying to Mesaba, and broke Express down into submission in Memphis. NWA grew Mesaba while they screwed Express.

While Express was nearing the end of their negotiations, the NWA pilot group was also in heated talks. In the Fall of 1998, the NWA pilots went on strike. While the NWA pilots were in negotiations, NWA management grew Mesaba, gave them more Saabs and Avros with new routes.

Well, guess who's next in line in this story of the magical whipsaw........Mesaba. After NWA settled their contract, Mesaba entered negotiations. NWA buys Express, changes their name to Pinnacle, and gives them tons of CRJ's and new routes all over the red tail system. All while doing this, NWA beats down Mesaba by halting their growth. Mesaba Holdings then changes its name to MAIR Holdings, buys Big Sky Airlines, and drags on negotiations. Mesaba eventually gets a new contract, then a year or so later NWA screams chapter 11, and Mesaba joins them. NWA takes away the Avros, and guts XJ. Mesaba agrees to a new concessionary "contract" and then gets awarded CRJ 900's.

Now the cycle starts all over again.......Pinnacle (which was sold off from NWA a few years back) is now in negotiations. Suddenly, NWA buys XJ and is now going to start giving them some of 9E's planes. Hmmmmmm........this sounds familiar.

All I am saying is that wherrever you go, take a look at the trends. NWA is famous (as well as other airlines out there) for pitting it's pilot groups (and I mean NW, XJ, 9E) against eachother. They will beat you down when you are in negotiations. I've seen it and lived it. Right now, if I were in your shoes, and knowing what I know now, I'd head to XJ for the mere fact that they are in a good position for growth. Also, they do have a better contract. This si nothing against the 9E guys. It's just their turn in line for the beatings. Either way, good luck!

We have a recently signed, sealed and delivered deal from NW to fly 124 CRJs for NW for 10 years. The only ones that can screw that up is PT. We all know he is capable of screwing this up, but me thinks he will do just enough to hold the deal together. And we got this deal with NW while we were in negotiations and did not fall for ANY of there bull crap.

You guys are going to have to give up on the idea that we will lose more because of negotiations. Now we also have the delta flying. 16 900's with options for 8 more for now.

Things don't look that bad for our future. The FO pay is horrible, but at least I will only have to deal with that for a total of 18 months.

The origanal question was MSP. You guys are smoking crack if you think a mesaba new hire will see jet captain in under 5 years in MSP. I have friends that are seven year FOs on the saab at mesaba waiting for there turn at msp captain that will never leave mesabe and that does not include the lifer msp captains.

But I don't even know why I am having this conversation. I told myself I would not help PT recruit pilots until he gives us a fair deal.

 

[XJohXJ]

Thank you for helping me to make my point, as well. Quick upgrade to MSP Capt = PCL. Basically good job = Mesaba. There is a reason why people never leave Mesaba. Mesaba, at the end of the day is a pretty good place to work, despite all the typical BS frustrations. PCL, despite a very quick upgrade, from all I have ever heard, is not a very good place to work.

Again, I am not talking about the pilots or the other labor groups. I am talking about the overall companies.

Furthermore, I am not saying that it is all black-or-white between the two companies. There a couple hundred upgrade slots coming up quickly at Mesaba, including plenty of jet and turbo prop slots in MSP. I am sure that there are plenty of things to like with PCL conditions and QOL as well. However, in the end, Mesaba has an advantage with QOL and overall contract, and PCL has an advantage with jet capt upgrade.

So make your choice: quicker upgrade vs all around QOL. Some folks will pick one, some will pick the other. It entirely depends on who you are, and no one call tell you which is better for you.

 

[Quack]

I left another regional with decent pay, and ok schedules, for PNCL and many wondered why the hell I would do that? However, the former airline didn't offer any sort of future past 3 yrs. from now. Sure PCL has its fair share of problems;pay, schedules, and the list goes on. But they're not going anywhere anytime soon. I'm from the midwest and took a job on the east coast thinking that I'd like it, but at the end of the day, I still wanted to be back in the midwest. I say take a job where you want to live, and don't look back. You'll second guess yourself the entire time like I did (took me 2 1/2 yrs. to realize).

 

[Tank Commander]

You have to weight both. I like xj and the pilot group. 9e Has its issues, some huge. Thinks about witch place to go and the amount of time you plan on staying there. 9e just signed a 10 service agreement with NW and Delta. With delta they are buying their own airplanes to fly for Delta. As sad as it is, you need to look at growth and security. xj is now wholly owned by NW. Being wholly owned by NW is never a good thing. 9e with a 10 service agreement is now a future player. xj and compass are the variables. I think one will be sold lock stock and barrel and the other will be rolled off in to its own IPO. What will happen to witch, I don't know. But NW picking up the expenses for both long term goes against NWA's new business model. They want out of the regional market, and manage large regionals (lowest bidders) on their feeder route. One thing I know. Manage your career, Don't let the industy do in.

 

[saabservant]

how about remembering what you got into this career for? To be a lifer at a regional, an alpa-sanctioned third-class career?
Quality of life? B.S. Go where you can upgrade quickest, and move on.
All these Mesaba "lifer msp captains" are deluding themselves, and selling out their futures. NWA will slap them down again....
I should know, I'm trying hard to not be one of them.

 

[CptMurf]

We have a recently signed, sealed and delivered deal from NW to fly 124 CRJs for NW for 10 years. The only ones that can screw that up is PT. We all know he is capable of screwing this up, but me thinks he will do just enough to hold the deal together. And we got this deal with NW while we were in negotiations and did not fall for ANY of there bull crap.

You guys are going to have to give up on the idea that we will lose more because of negotiations. Now we also have the delta flying. 16 900's with options for 8 more for now.

XJ signed a nice 10 year ASA with NWA awarding us 15 CRJ200's with the next 20 GUARANTEED to come to us.......Right before they stopped the deliveries, claimed BK, forced us into BK. Your ASA isn't worth crap, please stop believing it is.

 

[BoilerUP]

Things don't look that bad for our future. The FO pay is horrible, but at least I will only have to deal with that for a total of 18 months.

Does this mindset not make anybody else fear for our profession?

 

[Mesabi Miner]

XJ signed a nice 10 year ASA with NWA awarding us 15 CRJ200's with the next 20 GUARANTEED to come to us.......Right before they stopped the deliveries, claimed BK, forced us into BK. Your ASA isn't worth crap, please stop believing it is.

Here here! We all breathed a collective sigh of relief when our first ASA was signed. And they yanked it. They can. And will. When they darn well please. This is the real Northwest. Nobody is immune. Get in, get out. Don't look back. The best place to view the Northwest family is in the rearview mirror.

 

[Papps]

Does this mindset not make anybody else fear for our profession?

commuter/regional pay has always sucked. I am the first guy to call B.S on the aviation profession, but im optimistic. I think we will start getting leverage back to demand good pay at the major level. Would i get into flying if i could do it all over...no, but now that we are here i think things are going to be looking up.

 

[Smarta$$]

Does this mindset not make anybody else fear for our profession?

That was not very nice. I am in NO way justifing the low pay. I normally am on here supporting pilots taking a stand and fighting for a fair wage. I am also very vocal of my critisism of our current contract and the way this management runs this company. My statement was looking at the bright side of the situation.

 

[Smarta$$]

XJ signed a nice 10 year ASA with NWA awarding us 15 CRJ200's with the next 20 GUARANTEED to come to us.......Right before they stopped the deliveries, claimed BK, forced us into BK. Your ASA isn't worth crap, please stop believing it is.

You can keep wishing the worst for us. So tell me, when is NW and\or Pinnacle filing BK?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I don't think CptMurf is wishing the worst, he just knows from experience that an ASA is nice, but it's not going to save the ship when NWA wants to renegotiate because of the next burp that hits the system in 6 years (+or- a few).

The ASA isn't a bad thing, it just isn't a guarantee.

When is 9E gonna start offering Corvettes for completion of OE? I think they might have something then. . . A nice red one with the hot engine. . . Z06?

 

[Smarta$$]

I don't think CptMurf is wishing the worst, he just knows from experience that an ASA is nice, but it's not going to save the ship when NWA wants to renegotiate because of the next burp that hits the system in 6 years (+or- a few).

The ASA isn't a bad thing, it just isn't a guarantee.

When is 9E gonna start offering Corvettes for completion of OE? I think they might have something then. . . A nice red one with the hot engine. . . Z06?

I would go with red also. My last 5 cars\trucks have been black. I am pretty sick of black.