Mesaba or Pinnacle?

[hdpilot1]

Which place would be a better place to go? I would like to live in MSP and dont want to commute. Ive been at a 121 carrier for about 3 yrs now but it looks like upgrades could be many years down the road. Any info would be great.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Mesaba only because Pinnacle is about to get slammed by Northwest. It's bargaining time for their pilot group and it's going to get ugly for them. I hope it doesn't, but it will.

Our fleet is about to double. We have many senior high time captains and First Officers that are leaving for Southwest, CAl, DAL, etc. Upgrades are already getting close to senority numbers from before Ch11.

MSP is our senior base but if you get the 900 or 200 you'll be in MSP right off the bat. The SAAB in maybe 2 months.

Good luck.

 

[dal757]

what are the chances of Memphis for a newhire?

 

[flypixs]

FO for 3 years? What kind of clown outfit are you flying for? I thought that the upgrade time at most reginals is down to 1 or 2 years? Run and do it fast

 

[Groundskprwilly]

No problem for MEM. I started requal on Apr 2 and I'll move to MSP in Aug. It's all a crap shoot, but if you want to jump ship I think Mesaba is the best bet theses days. There's 100 and change between me and lowest upgrade on the Saab.

Best of luck

 

[dal757]

If you go to Memphis are you in the Saab or is there a chance for the CRJ there?

 

[hdpilot1]

Flypixs, I think you know where I work. Maybe we work together? HA You need to run fast so some poor captain doesn't get downgraded.

 

[arthompson]

PCL is no longer relying on NW for all of it's income.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

If you go to Memphis are you in the Saab or is there a chance for the CRJ there?

No CRJ 900's set to go to MEM til next year. First base is MSP then a large batch to DTW then finally to MEM. Supposedly all 17 CRJ 200's to stay in MSP.
If you want MEM then hope for the Saab.

 

[Flyer1015]

Mesaba just uploaded a new presentation about pilot hiring, bases, info, etc. that should answer all your questions.

Click on the screen for the next slide, and work your way through it all.

http://avro.mymesaba.com/PilotPresentation/PilotPresentation_files/fullscreen.htm

 

[Smarta$$]

Mesaba only because Pinnacle is about to get slammed by Northwest. It's bargaining time for their pilot group and it's going to get ugly for them. I hope it doesn't, but it will.

Our fleet is about to double. We have many senior high time captains and First Officers that are leaving for Southwest, CAl, DAL, etc. Upgrades are already getting close to senority numbers from before Ch11.

MSP is our senior base but if you get the 900 or 200 you'll be in MSP right off the bat. The SAAB in maybe 2 months.

Good luck.

Pinnacle has a ten year agreement to fly 124 crjs for NW. I don't see how negotiations will change that. Also, I would not expect MSP jet captain at Mesaba for 4-5 years. MSP saab captain in maybe 2.5 - 3 for reserve and 47 dollars an hour. Does not sound that great to me for a MSP native. For DTW or MEM then it sounds better.

For MSP though, I would say you would be better off in the the imediate 3-5 years at Pinnacle. At least at Pinnacle you have MSP captains leaving. With Mesabas new larger RJ's, is just another excuse for the senior MSP guys not to leave.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Pinnacle has a ten year agreement to fly 124 crjs for NW. I don't see how negotiations will change that. Also, I would not expect MSP jet captain at Mesaba for 4-5 years. MSP saab captain in maybe 2.5 - 3 for reserve and 47 dollars an hour. Does not sound that great to me for a MSP native. For DTW or MEM then it sounds better.

For MSP though, I would say you would be better off in the the imediate 3-5 years at Pinnacle. At least at Pinnacle you have MSP captains leaving. With Mesabas new larger RJ's, is just another excuse for the senior MSP guys not to leave.

You MIGHT see CRJ 200 captain in MSP in 6-7 years.... CRJ 900 only if you are one of the lifers....waiting on all the current lifers to retire to open a seat on the 900 for you to take.

 

[shortbus driver]

doubled the number of planes?

Mesaba just doubled the number of airplanes? Wow that brings you to around 100. Thats neat. Pinnacle operates 124 for NW and has 16 more on order for delta. That is just was is set for now. All mesaba can do is beg for more from Northwest; Pinnacle can finally buy their own. Pinnacle is far from perfect, but in reality all regionals are crappy. Pick based on where you live and upgrade time. Go Pinnacle. Easy answer

 

[XJohXJ]

If a quick upgrade in MSP is your priority PCL is probably a better choice. Most XJ MSP SF3 FO's would have been MSP CRJ Capt's if we had been hired at the same time at PCL instead.

If PCL gets a new, vastly improved contract, then they will be a solid choice for employment. However, as bad as the XJ contract pay is, our work rules are still pretty good. As able as XJ MGT is to let loose with a good whipping, PCL has an even worse contract and working conditions (for now). PCL will grind you down and spit you out, whereas currently Mesaba is just garden variety frustrating.

I am not at all taking issue with the pilot groups or other labor groups at either company. I am just talking about day to day QOL and working conditions issues.

Mesaba had a lot of FO's leave due to our fraudulent bankruptcy and immanent furloughs. PCL has had FO's leave in droves due to sheer frustration, even with a good upgrade outlook.

Your QOL will most likely be much much better at Mesaba. Your FO pay, stinky as it is at Mesaba, would be higher than at PCL. However, if soonest possible MSP Capt upgrade (as well as Capt pay, PCL CRJ being higher than XJ SF3) is your priority, than PCL is probably a better choice.

Anyone who says "all regionals are the same" is chock full of crappola. Some regionals are good, some are OK, and some are absolute nightmares.

 

[xjhawk]

look at work rules you tool!

Mesaba just doubled the number of airplanes? Wow that brings you to around 100. Thats neat. Pinnacle operates 124 for NW and has 16 more on order for delta. That is just was is set for now. All mesaba can do is beg for more from Northwest; Pinnacle can finally buy their own. Pinnacle is far from perfect, but in reality all regionals are crappy. Pick based on where you live and upgrade time. Go Pinnacle. Easy answer

when I fly one leg and dead head somewhere, I get four hours of pay. When a flight cancels, guess what, I get paid. When my trip is cancelled for IOE, guess what, I am paid bolck on that trip. All more pay than Pinnacle. That said, I would be a CRJ Captain now in MSp if I were at 9E. Look at everything, but to say we will "just"double in the next year and a half is an understatement. NWA will get more 900's, and its a good guess they will stay in their sphere of influence, I.E XJ. Which means fast upgrades and movement on the list.

 

[shortbus driver]

I am not saying its perfect...I am saying its the lesser of two evils

I understand the work rules are less than perfect...they are not fun sometimes. We have an oportunity for a new contract in the near future. I am not saying when because I don't have a clue. I have never worked for Mesaba so I cannot possibly perfectly analize the two, but I do not like our crew schedulings reasons but for how little I deal with them I don't care that much. I have only had one leg cancelled on me in 7 months, never been bought off for oe and am seriously looking at a pretty quick upgrade. Some people complain because they have never seen worse. Pinnacle is not bad and the airplanes are pretty nice. We have a lot of them, we are getting more and we have options to fly for anyone. I understand that mesaba is growing, but when after a call back several people I know declined...that says something to me. This is not a competition...its just giving someone my opinion of where to go work. Thats it.

 

[TurboAWD]

Pinnacle is not bad and the airplanes are pretty nice.

Yes it is, and a RJ is a RJ.

Turbo

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

Just an observation..........

In the late 90's when Express Airlines (now Pinnacle) was in contract negotiations, NWA dismantled their operation in MSP, gave the flying to Mesaba, and broke Express down into submission in Memphis. NWA grew Mesaba while they screwed Express.

While Express was nearing the end of their negotiations, the NWA pilot group was also in heated talks. In the Fall of 1998, the NWA pilots went on strike. While the NWA pilots were in negotiations, NWA management grew Mesaba, gave them more Saabs and Avros with new routes.

Well, guess who's next in line in this story of the magical whipsaw........Mesaba. After NWA settled their contract, Mesaba entered negotiations. NWA buys Express, changes their name to Pinnacle, and gives them tons of CRJ's and new routes all over the red tail system. All while doing this, NWA beats down Mesaba by halting their growth. Mesaba Holdings then changes its name to MAIR Holdings, buys Big Sky Airlines, and drags on negotiations. Mesaba eventually gets a new contract, then a year or so later NWA screams chapter 11, and Mesaba joins them. NWA takes away the Avros, and guts XJ. Mesaba agrees to a new concessionary "contract" and then gets awarded CRJ 900's.

Now the cycle starts all over again.......Pinnacle (which was sold off from NWA a few years back) is now in negotiations. Suddenly, NWA buys XJ and is now going to start giving them some of 9E's planes. Hmmmmmm........this sounds familiar.

All I am saying is that wherrever you go, take a look at the trends. NWA is famous (as well as other airlines out there) for pitting it's pilot groups (and I mean NW, XJ, 9E) against eachother. They will beat you down when you are in negotiations. I've seen it and lived it. Right now, if I were in your shoes, and knowing what I know now, I'd head to XJ for the mere fact that they are in a good position for growth. Also, they do have a better contract. This si nothing against the 9E guys. It's just their turn in line for the beatings. Either way, good luck!

 

[flypixs]

Which place would be a better place to go? I would like to live in MSP and dont want to commute. Ive been at a 121 carrier for about 3 yrs now but it looks like upgrades could be many years down the road. Any info would be great.

You have no idea who I am, nor where I work. Just for the record. I was trying to find out which loser outfit you are flying for. Thant's all. Good luck in making your decision.

 

[Smarta$$]

when I fly one leg and dead head somewhere, I get four hours of pay. When a flight cancels, guess what, I get paid. When my trip is cancelled for IOE, guess what, I am paid bolck on that trip. All more pay than Pinnacle. That said, I would be a CRJ Captain now in MSp if I were at 9E. Look at everything, but to say we will "just"double in the next year and a half is an understatement. NWA will get more 900's, and its a good guess they will stay in their sphere of influence, I.E XJ. Which means fast upgrades and movement on the list.

You guys are funny. NWA is going to give us more 900s. Well there is only 18 more to give out, and you will have to compete with compass for those. You think NWA will try to sell compass with only 36 aircraft, I doubt it. Remember that thing called scope!

 

[Smarta$$]

Just an observation..........

In the late 90's when Express Airlines (now Pinnacle) was in contract negotiations, NWA dismantled their operation in MSP, gave the flying to Mesaba, and broke Express down into submission in Memphis. NWA grew Mesaba while they screwed Express.

While Express was nearing the end of their negotiations, the NWA pilot group was also in heated talks. In the Fall of 1998, the NWA pilots went on strike. While the NWA pilots were in negotiations, NWA management grew Mesaba, gave them more Saabs and Avros with new routes.

Well, guess who's next in line in this story of the magical whipsaw........Mesaba. After NWA settled their contract, Mesaba entered negotiations. NWA buys Express, changes their name to Pinnacle, and gives them tons of CRJ's and new routes all over the red tail system. All while doing this, NWA beats down Mesaba by halting their growth. Mesaba Holdings then changes its name to MAIR Holdings, buys Big Sky Airlines, and drags on negotiations. Mesaba eventually gets a new contract, then a year or so later NWA screams chapter 11, and Mesaba joins them. NWA takes away the Avros, and guts XJ. Mesaba agrees to a new concessionary "contract" and then gets awarded CRJ 900's.

Now the cycle starts all over again.......Pinnacle (which was sold off from NWA a few years back) is now in negotiations. Suddenly, NWA buys XJ and is now going to start giving them some of 9E's planes. Hmmmmmm........this sounds familiar.

All I am saying is that wherrever you go, take a look at the trends. NWA is famous (as well as other airlines out there) for pitting it's pilot groups (and I mean NW, XJ, 9E) against eachother. They will beat you down when you are in negotiations. I've seen it and lived it. Right now, if I were in your shoes, and knowing what I know now, I'd head to XJ for the mere fact that they are in a good position for growth. Also, they do have a better contract. This si nothing against the 9E guys. It's just their turn in line for the beatings. Either way, good luck!

We have a recently signed, sealed and delivered deal from NW to fly 124 CRJs for NW for 10 years. The only ones that can screw that up is PT. We all know he is capable of screwing this up, but me thinks he will do just enough to hold the deal together. And we got this deal with NW while we were in negotiations and did not fall for ANY of there bull crap.

You guys are going to have to give up on the idea that we will lose more because of negotiations. Now we also have the delta flying. 16 900's with options for 8 more for now.

Things don't look that bad for our future. The FO pay is horrible, but at least I will only have to deal with that for a total of 18 months.

The origanal question was MSP. You guys are smoking crack if you think a mesaba new hire will see jet captain in under 5 years in MSP. I have friends that are seven year FOs on the saab at mesaba waiting for there turn at msp captain that will never leave mesabe and that does not include the lifer msp captains.

But I don't even know why I am having this conversation. I told myself I would not help PT recruit pilots until he gives us a fair deal.

 

[XJohXJ]

Thank you for helping me to make my point, as well. Quick upgrade to MSP Capt = PCL. Basically good job = Mesaba. There is a reason why people never leave Mesaba. Mesaba, at the end of the day is a pretty good place to work, despite all the typical BS frustrations. PCL, despite a very quick upgrade, from all I have ever heard, is not a very good place to work.

Again, I am not talking about the pilots or the other labor groups. I am talking about the overall companies.

Furthermore, I am not saying that it is all black-or-white between the two companies. There a couple hundred upgrade slots coming up quickly at Mesaba, including plenty of jet and turbo prop slots in MSP. I am sure that there are plenty of things to like with PCL conditions and QOL as well. However, in the end, Mesaba has an advantage with QOL and overall contract, and PCL has an advantage with jet capt upgrade.

So make your choice: quicker upgrade vs all around QOL. Some folks will pick one, some will pick the other. It entirely depends on who you are, and no one call tell you which is better for you.

 

[Quack]

I left another regional with decent pay, and ok schedules, for PNCL and many wondered why the hell I would do that? However, the former airline didn't offer any sort of future past 3 yrs. from now. Sure PCL has its fair share of problems;pay, schedules, and the list goes on. But they're not going anywhere anytime soon. I'm from the midwest and took a job on the east coast thinking that I'd like it, but at the end of the day, I still wanted to be back in the midwest. I say take a job where you want to live, and don't look back. You'll second guess yourself the entire time like I did (took me 2 1/2 yrs. to realize).

 

[Tank Commander]

You have to weight both. I like xj and the pilot group. 9e Has its issues, some huge. Thinks about witch place to go and the amount of time you plan on staying there. 9e just signed a 10 service agreement with NW and Delta. With delta they are buying their own airplanes to fly for Delta. As sad as it is, you need to look at growth and security. xj is now wholly owned by NW. Being wholly owned by NW is never a good thing. 9e with a 10 service agreement is now a future player. xj and compass are the variables. I think one will be sold lock stock and barrel and the other will be rolled off in to its own IPO. What will happen to witch, I don't know. But NW picking up the expenses for both long term goes against NWA's new business model. They want out of the regional market, and manage large regionals (lowest bidders) on their feeder route. One thing I know. Manage your career, Don't let the industy do in.

 

[saabservant]

how about remembering what you got into this career for? To be a lifer at a regional, an alpa-sanctioned third-class career?
Quality of life? B.S. Go where you can upgrade quickest, and move on.
All these Mesaba "lifer msp captains" are deluding themselves, and selling out their futures. NWA will slap them down again....
I should know, I'm trying hard to not be one of them.

 

[CptMurf]

We have a recently signed, sealed and delivered deal from NW to fly 124 CRJs for NW for 10 years. The only ones that can screw that up is PT. We all know he is capable of screwing this up, but me thinks he will do just enough to hold the deal together. And we got this deal with NW while we were in negotiations and did not fall for ANY of there bull crap.

You guys are going to have to give up on the idea that we will lose more because of negotiations. Now we also have the delta flying. 16 900's with options for 8 more for now.

XJ signed a nice 10 year ASA with NWA awarding us 15 CRJ200's with the next 20 GUARANTEED to come to us.......Right before they stopped the deliveries, claimed BK, forced us into BK. Your ASA isn't worth crap, please stop believing it is.

 

[BoilerUP]

Things don't look that bad for our future. The FO pay is horrible, but at least I will only have to deal with that for a total of 18 months.

Does this mindset not make anybody else fear for our profession?

 

[Mesabi Miner]

XJ signed a nice 10 year ASA with NWA awarding us 15 CRJ200's with the next 20 GUARANTEED to come to us.......Right before they stopped the deliveries, claimed BK, forced us into BK. Your ASA isn't worth crap, please stop believing it is.

Here here! We all breathed a collective sigh of relief when our first ASA was signed. And they yanked it. They can. And will. When they darn well please. This is the real Northwest. Nobody is immune. Get in, get out. Don't look back. The best place to view the Northwest family is in the rearview mirror.

 

[Papps]

Does this mindset not make anybody else fear for our profession?

commuter/regional pay has always sucked. I am the first guy to call B.S on the aviation profession, but im optimistic. I think we will start getting leverage back to demand good pay at the major level. Would i get into flying if i could do it all over...no, but now that we are here i think things are going to be looking up.

 

[Smarta$$]

Does this mindset not make anybody else fear for our profession?

That was not very nice. I am in NO way justifing the low pay. I normally am on here supporting pilots taking a stand and fighting for a fair wage. I am also very vocal of my critisism of our current contract and the way this management runs this company. My statement was looking at the bright side of the situation.