Mesaba getting more CRJ-200's?

[IamGumbyDammit]

....so your defense for his ignorance about his new job was that he was lying.....OK got it.....

Whatever it took to get you to go away that day.........

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

....so your defense for his ignorance about his new job was that he was lying.....OK got it.....

I'd defend him if he was ignoring you.

 

[PCL_128]

"Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."

Learning from history is one thing; b!tching and moaning about it for all eternity is quite another.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Learning from history is one thing; b!tching and moaning about it for all eternity is quite another.

When you and ALPA learn....I will quit b!tching......

Deal or no deal?

 

[PCL_128]

Downward pressure hurts everyone.....That is what this is about....The mainlines have to do the heavy lifting for two reasons.....

1. The union representing us says that this "brand scope" belongs to the mainline group....Under that logic only they can negotiate "brand scope"....How do you propose that ASA pilots negotiate Delta brand scope?

2. The mainlines have the leverage.....ASA or CMR can be replaced if they push too hard....as is being seen with CMR....

What the regionals need to give up to accomplish this is something that you refuse to give up: flow-back rights. The best way to deal with brand scope is to establish permanent flow-through agreements that limit all code share agreements to ALPA regionals that have a flow-through with the mainline carrier. The mainline pilots can accomplish this, but they need something in return. If they're going to give up their negotiating capital to achieve this brand scope, then they need to have some more job security in return. That means flow-back rights. Until you're willing to accept something like this, you'll never get your coveted brand scope.

 

[PCL_128]

When you and ALPA learn....I will quit b!tching......

Deal or no deal?

I've already learned. I'm the world's biggest advocate of strong scope language.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What the regionals need to give up to accomplish this is something that you refuse to give up: flow-back rights. The best way to deal with brand scope is to establish permanent flow-through agreements that limit all code share agreements to ALPA regionals that have a flow-through with the mainline carrier. The mainline pilots can accomplish this, but they need something in return. If they're going to give up their negotiating capital to achieve this brand scope, then they need to have some more job security in return. That means flow-back rights. Until you're willing to accept something like this, you'll never get your coveted brand scope.

I'm all for FAIR cross bidding....But so far I haven't seen that with any of the flowthrough agreements...They are very one sided.....

The mainline pilot flows back to the top of the regional list and the regional pilot flows to the bottom of the mainline list....

That's no deal there...I would rather just stay separate......The cuts are about to happen again and I'm glad there isn't a flowback to the top of our list...

 

[JoeMerchant]

I've already learned. I'm the world's biggest advocate of strong scope language.

1. ALPA hasn't learned....

2. I don't think the "strong scope" you are talking about will fly with the regional folks....maybe I'm wrong on this but I bet it is more of the same.....

 

[PCL_128]

I don't think the "strong scope" you are talking about will fly with the regional folks....maybe I'm wrong on this but I bet it is more of the same.....

What I want is a single seniority list. No more outsourcing. Period. Barring that, since it's likely impossible at this point in time, the intermediate step should be flow-through agreements. Yes, that would require flow-ups to go to the bottom of the mainline list and flow-downs to go to the top. This is the sacrifice that I'm talking about from the regional guys. The reward is in never having to deal with having your flying RFPed to the lowest bidder again.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What I want is a single seniority list. No more outsourcing. Period. Barring that, since it's likely impossible at this point in time, the intermediate step should be flow-through agreements. Yes, that would require flow-ups to go to the bottom of the mainline list and flow-downs to go to the top. This is the sacrifice that I'm talking about from the regional guys. The reward is in never having to deal with having your flying RFPed to the lowest bidder again.

1. We tried the single list with the PID.....but mainline arrogance killed it...There is a double standard in ALPA....there are "real jobs" and "stepping stone jobs"....Like "wives and lovers"....ALPA's hope is that they never meet.......

2. Your version of a flowthrough proves my point above.....A probationary mainline pilot who has been flying Delta passengers for less than a year and has been an ALPA member for less than a year trumps a 25 year ASA or CMR pilot who has been flying Delta passengers possibly longer than that Delta pilot has been alive.....If that is ALPA's version of "fair" then it is time for ALPA to go....

I would rather deal with the RFP's and make a competitive bid than get bumped down.....

 

[PCL_128]

1. We tried the single list with the PID

Again with the past? The PID was unworkable. Nothing in any of the respective CBAs required a merger, nothing in ALPA merger policy required a merger, and nothing on God's green Earth could have forced management to accept a single list without massive concessions from the DAL pilots. Stop focusing on your failures of the past. Look towards new solutions.

2. Your version of a flowthrough proves my point above.....A probationary mainline pilot who has been flying Delta passengers for less than a year and has been an ALPA member for less than a year trumps a 25 year ASA or CMR pilot who has been flying Delta passengers possibly longer than that Delta pilot has been alive.....If that is ALPA's version of "fair" then it is time for ALPA to go....

Under my system, there wouldn't be many probationary pilots with less than a year of flying DAL pax. You would have 90% of the newhire coming from the flow-through agreements, with only 10% coming from outside to satisfy the mainline guys that want to help their military or corporate buddies get hired. This is how you make a step towards a single list. One giant leap ain't gonna cut it. Incrementalism, my friend. That's how you get things done.

 

[CptMurf]

2. Your version of a flowthrough proves my point above.....A probationary mainline pilot who has been flying Delta passengers for less than a year and has been an ALPA member for less than a year trumps a 25 year ASA or CMR pilot who has been flying Delta passengers possibly longer than that Delta pilot has been alive.....If that is ALPA's version of "fair" then it is time for ALPA to go...

XJ's flowthrough addressess this. First thing to know is that our LOA only allows the same number that flow up can flow down if need be.(we track this on our senoirity list as a "flowed" posiiton) The flowdown does not have to be the same person, just the same number of people. Next, if they do flow down, they are a Captain with year one senority or longevity. That means, they may bump a junior CA back to FO, but once a position opens, the junior FO will reinstate to CA and the flowback will be the junior. (Same language as our street CA's, except the initial displacement rights) Probably won't seem fair to that junior CA, till he reinstates and never has to sit reserve.

 

[CptMurf]

You would have 90% of the newhire coming from the flow-through agreements, with only 10% coming from outside to satisfy the mainline guys that want to help their military or corporate buddies get hired. This is how you make a step towards a single list. One giant leap ain't gonna cut it. Incrementalism, my friend. That's how you get things done.

Our flowthrough states a 9 person per month flow cap, but the flows must happen first, before hiring off the street. Therefore if there is a newhire class of 10, the first 9 would be XJ. If only 8 in class, all 8 XJ. If hiring is in full swing 108 XJ pilots flow a year.

Compass also has a flow with NWA. I know that our LOA is MUCH more involved...limits, flowback protections, etc. But I don't know much about their flow agreement or how ours will interact with theirs.

Don't know if the 2 combined will equal 90%, but it's a start.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm a big fan of the XJ/NWA flow-through. I think it's a great model to be used in future agreements.

 

[fat bottom girl]

Compass' contract states that compass pilot will flow before Mesaba pilots... "Compass Airlines pilots will be offered employment at Northwest Airlines before any other Northwest Airlines Affiliate Carrier or new hires from the street directly to Northwest Airlines."

 

[CFIfornow]

Compass' contract states that compass pilot will flow before Mesaba pilots... "Compass Airlines pilots will be offered employment at Northwest Airlines before any other Northwest Airlines Affiliate Carrier or new hires from the street directly to Northwest Airlines."

True....but no one from compass can flow for 30 months (maybe 25 now) and IF nwa keeps hiring, there will be about 215 mesaba pilots there from the flow before anyone from compass is on the nwa list.

 

[Terry Hunter]

Compass' contract states that compass pilot will flow before Mesaba pilots... "Compass Airlines pilots will be offered employment at Northwest Airlines before any other Northwest Airlines Affiliate Carrier or new hires from the street directly to Northwest Airlines."

How many a month will flow from CZ to NWA when the flow up is activated?

And for the clarification, I know that CZ started hiring about May-June of last year, so that would put the 30 month clock down to 19-20 months left.

 

[fat bottom girl]

The maximum number of Compass pilots flowing up to Northwest shall be: twenty-five percent (25%) of the total pilot group over a rolling twelve (12) month period, and no more than twenty (20) pilots per month.

 

[Raskal]

Compass' contract states that compass pilot will flow before Mesaba pilots... "Compass Airlines pilots will be offered employment at Northwest Airlines before any other Northwest Airlines Affiliate Carrier or new hires from the street directly to Northwest Airlines."

Just out of curiosity, the language above refers to "affiliate" carrier. Since both we and Compass are owned by NWA-are we "affiliates" or something else, like "subsidiary"?

 

[i fly boxes]

News flash, NWA is not hiring anymore