Mesaba gets CRJ's

[Dodge]

Where are these great work rules I always hear about?

They are for captains. The negotiating committee and MEC is made up of captains, not FO's.

 

[DoinTime]

Question: What is 9E's contract language regarding FO's bidding other FO positions? It must be way better than this.

Any new equipment is a free for all. Anyone can bid any seat.

Seat lock for FO's is 24 months in the right seat of the aircraft they are assigned (unless a new fleet is introduced).

FO's can upgrade into any equipment they can hold (and that they have the qualifications for) at any time.

It's obvious that you are much happier at 9E than you could possibly be at XJ.

Yes actually, I am very thankful that Mesaba didn't call me for an interview. Instead of being a senior FO on a Saab I am a senior captain on a CRJ in the domicile of my choice. I'm making over double what I would be making at XJ as well as building the qualifications to possibly be on the front side of the next hiring bubble.

 

[Dodge]

Well, there is something in your contract that is definately superior to ours. Your language sounds a little more friendly to those pilots who are FO's. I wish that the XJ ALPA would shore up a little better language for the FO's on the next contract and please GET RID OF THE COMPANIE'S ABILITY TO CONTINUOSLY CANCEL PILOT VACATIONS WHILE EVERYONE ELSE KEEPS THEIRS!!!!!!!!

 

[Towelie]

Work rules that impact your QOL go way past compensation provisions.

What "QOL" rules do you have that make 9E such a better place to work? Sounds to me like most of them are the same if not worse.

Ask the FO that is locked into the right seat while upgrades are available how much money he is making due to work rules.

Since all pay is the same, no one who wants to upgrade will cross-bid an F/O slot. The only people who did, who may be affected by this, did so without the knowledge of new aircraft coming. Most people could give a rat's ass what plane they fly since pay is the same. The only ones who care are new hires that want to fly a pure jet.

Ask the low seniority FO in how great his life is on reserve commuting from MSP to MEM while pilots junior to him are senior line holders in the city where he lives.

Huh? This makes no sense. I have yet to see this happen so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

These are QOL issues, not whether or not you made an extra .9 hours on a canceled turn.

Do I wish we had full trip and duty rig? You bet. Do I wish we had fewer 4-day trips? Heck yes.

But our QOL overall is not that bad. Seat locks are a necessary evil but really they don't hurt your upward progression at all. They only hurt those who bid sideways or back down.

Plus our trip guarantee is a lot better than "an extra .9 hours on a canceled turn." Try 5.3 hours when a trip bags due to weather. It's called getting full pay to stay in your own bed when an overnight cancels. It's called getting full pay when your trip is pulled for OE and having a 24-hour callout.

Best in the industry? Hardly. With no flame intended, I would still take our contract over yours any day of the week. Hopefully yours is better the next time, but as a total package, it sure doesn't measure up.

 

[DoinTime]

I never made a comparison between the PCL and XJ working agreements. Dodge asked what our FO bidding provisions were and I told him. While our FO bid rules are clearly superior to yours I did not insinuate that our contract was better. The ability to fly the equipment you want to fly out of the domicile you want to fly out of is a big part of QOL.

Most people could give a rat's ass what plane they fly since pay is the same.

That quote could only come from the mouth of someone who hasn't experienced both. At the time, I transitioned from the oldest Saab fleet in the world to the newest CRJ fleet in the world here at Pinnacle. Life is significantly better flying the CRJ even when everything else is equal.

So how about those work rules Dointime? Been Junior Manned lately?

I got junior manned once last year. That was the only time in the last five years.

Huh? This makes no sense. I have yet to see this happen so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Imagine this. An FO that lives in MSP gets hired shortly before the introduction of the CRJ and goes into a MEM based Saab position. He is stuck at the bottom of the Saab FO bid list and cannot bid out of it. Meanwhile, another FO that lives in MSP hired a month later into the CRJ will be senior on the CRJ FO bid list because none of the FO's senior to him can bid the position. This pilot will enjoy top bidding rights even though he is relatively junior.

The senior of these two FO's gets the shaft as he cannot bid out of the Saab. This would not be the case at PCL.

This type of injustice was rampant at PCL for people that were hired after the introduction of the CRJ. We had relatively senior Saab FO's sitting reserve in MEM while the #1 CRJ FO on the bid list in DTW was junior to them.

 

[fly4ever]

DoinTime,

You seem to contradict yourself in your post by saying,

"The senior of these two FO's gets the shaft as he cannot bid out of the Saab. This would not be the case at PCL."

followed by,

"This type of injustice was rampant at PCL for people that were hired after the introduction of the CRJ. We had relatively senior Saab FO's sitting reserve in MEM while the #1 CRJ FO on the bid list in DTW was junior to them."

Did your contract provisions change after the CRJs came and the Saabs left or is it just because you only have one fleet type to deal with now so no issue regarding seatlocks exists?

Since we aren't really making comparisons between the 9E and XJ contracts....

 

[DoinTime]

DoinTime,

You seem to contradict yourself in your post by saying,

"The senior of these two FO's gets the shaft as he cannot bid out of the Saab. This would not be the case at PCL."

followed by,

"This type of injustice was rampant at PCL for people that were hired after the introduction of the CRJ. We had relatively senior Saab FO's sitting reserve in MEM while the #1 CRJ FO on the bid list in DTW was junior to them."

Did your contract provisions change after the CRJs came and the Saabs left or is it just because you only have one fleet type to deal with now so no issue regarding seatlocks exists?

Since we aren't really making comparisons between the 9E and XJ contracts....

If you would have read the entire post instead of every three out of five words you would have realized that the example I gave in your first quote was for a pilot that was on property before the CRJ was introduced. The second quote was for a pilot that was hired after all fleet types were in operation.

 

[fly4ever]

Actually I read the entire post and as you wrote it you state that your example could not happen at Pinnacle and then you state that the "injustice" did exist at Pinnacle. The first statement quoted came immediately before the second and they were contradicting statements.

So I don't think I'm misreading anything but maybe you wrote something incorrectly.

 

[AvroJockey]

Work rules that impact your QOL go way past compensation provisions.

- Ask the FO that is locked into the right seat while upgrades are available how much money he is making due to work rules.

- Ask the low seniority FO in how great his life is on reserve commuting from MSP to MEM while pilots junior to him are senior line holders in the city where he lives.

These are QOL issues, not whether or not you made an extra .9 hours on a canceled turn.

I'm sorry, you didn't specify! Well here you go!

Days off - 11 minimum, including reserve. This is not reduceable at all!! Crew scheduling won't even let you pick up opentime. No multiple JMs, such as being JMed, getting comp days, then getting JMed for your original trip on those comp days(I have a 9E crashpad roomate, so I'm very much aware of what goes on there). Additionally, 11 day off regular and buildup lines are rare. I was the last lineholder for DTW SF340 Capt in the month of May, and my line was build to 15 days off (BTW - 104 hrs of credit, but you don't care about pay)

Commuting - the same call-in-honest policy that mainline has, unlimited, and used frequently.

Supervisors that got your back - Scott and Chris in DTW will do everything in there power to make sure your successfull at your job and have fun while doing it. Example - during the east-coast power outage in 2003, Scott ordered up a sh!tload of Subway subs from the Subway in TOL, had them put on a Saab and flown up to DTW so crews could eat.

Schedulers - after 4 years of sitting on reserve, I can honestly say that they really care about the crews QOL. There have been countless times they let me change my contact time on the first day, so I could commute in on the same day, and every last day of reserve I have been released early to commute home. I mean early! They almost always let me go home on the 3:30 pm flight when I was on reserve until 7pm.

In my last recurrent class another DTW SF340 Captain had his wife visit crew scheduling, because she wanted to thank them for all their flexability. You see, this Captain and his wife were having a hard time getting pregnant, and scheduling did everyhting within their power to adjust his schedule to fit her 'cycle', in order to conceive. These people really care, and I know your schedulers get fired for caring.

Schedulers are also forgiving. Within the last year there was two instances where my cell phone didn't ring or I accidently had it on silent, and scheduling couldn't get ahold of me for a trip assignment. I felt bad, because I want to be there for them, because they are always there for me. both times they told me not to worry about it. No mis-trip, no trip to the CP, to meeting to remove a mis-trip from my file, no grievance to file.

Day to Day operations - never being pressured to do something I don't want to. Always being backed up by a flight manager when SOC doesn't agree with me. Not having to fly with GSA pilots, or Captains with overbearing/authortarian attitudes on a regular basis. We have exceptions though, everplace does, just not commonplace at XJ. Working with people who enjoy thier job, because the atmoshpere breeds this displacement.

I would bet one years NW Whale Captain's salary that the QOL at XJ far exceeds that at 9E.

PS. That .9 for a canceled turn is somewhat unrealistic, considering the fact our shortest leg in the Saab is 45min. Regardless, .9 hours pays for my highspeed internet and phone everymonth, which certainly enhances the quality of my families life.

You must commute to a country void of capitalism, where extra money doesn't promote a better QOL

 

[fly4ever]

At XJ, FO's can bid to another domicile with no penalty. If there is a space available and they have the seniority they will get the spot.

FO's can change equipment (obviously no longer a factor at 9E) as FO if they have done their time in the aircraft they were hired into and if no opportunity to upgrade exists but unfortunately they are subject to the 24 month seatlock (definitely not a good provision).

Anyone that did that within the past year were doing so with knowledge of the provision and the possibility that NWA could begin directing aircraft to us. They chose to make the move for their own reasons.

When Pinnacle receives its last airplane and hiring slows so will the ability to change domiciles within your system. So it is possible and may be happening already that, at some point, a junior FO will sit in a better position in another domicile than a senior FO in their domicile of choice. As far as I know that is the way it is in every airline that has a seniority system.

 

[DoinTime]

Hey DoinTime,

It sounds like 9E had the same problem that XJ has with two fleets. The only difference is you guys have ONE type of AC now! So why are you knocking the seat lock rule at XJ? Do you think life at 9E would be any different if a 70 seat AC was added to your fleet?

My point of contention is that current FO's will not be able to bid the CRJ. Instead, what will essentially become a new seniority list will be formed from new hires at Mesaba. At 9E any new equipment is available to bid by EVERYONE on the list when that type goes into service. When we started getting CRJ's all Saab FO's could choose their aircraft instead of the premium positions (the CRJ) being given away to new hires. Everyone that was hired after both fleets were operating did not have this choice and they had to upgrade or wait 24 months to transition (Although after 9/11 the company lifted all equipment locks).

Were you around when the Saab were on the property at 9E?

We only had Saabs when I was hired as the jetstreams had all been retired several months prior to my employment.

 

[Towelie]

My point of contention is that current FO's will not be able to bid the CRJ. Instead, what will essentially become a new seniority list will be formed from new hires at Mesaba. At 9E any new equipment is available to bid by EVERYONE on the list when that type goes into service. When we started getting CRJ's all Saab FO's could choose their aircraft instead of the premium positions (the CRJ) being given away to new hires. Everyone that was hired after both fleets were operating did not have this choice and they had to upgrade or wait 24 months to transition (Although after 9/11 the company lifted all equipment locks).

Any F/O with 3 years and no chance to upgrade can bid to the CRJ. They do take a 24 month seat lock but they can still bid. So they are far from being locked out.

Also, since pay is exactly the same, most probably will get a better QOL on the Saab. When the Avro started, schedules sucked and everyone only got guarantee because of low flying. There will still be people on reserve on the CRJ in MSP, too.

I do see your point but I think it is a necessary evil. It would be different if the CRJ were in an exclusive domicile or if pay were different but it really isn't that big a deal. Lately all Saab F/O's who want MSP have been getting it in 2 months or less.

We could argue this all night long. I do think you have decent points, however I guess seat locks are a necessary evil to keep training costs down.

 

[flap operator]

The interesting this is that the vast majority of Fos on property have been here more than 3 years with no opportunity to upgrade. I'd say there are only about 150 with less than 3 years here... so the better part of our Fo list is not seat locked. Unless of course they switched seats in the last 2 years.


FO

 

[Dodge]

The interesting this is that the vast majority of Fos on property have been here more than 3 years with no opportunity to upgrade.


FO

Careful there. The last DTW Saab captain award went very junior with a hire date of Jul 31, 2000. According to section 24c.3.b.2. those FO's that HAD the chance to upgrade but turned it down are locked in current position until they go to a captain position.

All the current senior FO's, at least senior to Jul 31, 2000, are now stuck until they upgrade. Of course, that is anytime they would like.