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Mesaba/Colgan/Pinnacle get some facts before you speak.

flyn96

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Will the pilots of all three groups please read ALPA national merger policies before spouting off in the crew room, employee bus, etc.

First off there have been no negotiations on SLI (YET). So anything you hear, ie DOH, 1:3 Ratio, relative seniority, LOA, staple are rumors.

Regardless of what Pinnacle Inc. calls this transaction ie merger, acquisition, asset transfer it does not matter. According to the ALPA policy manual:

(a “merger” is defined as a situation where there is a reasonable probability of sufficient operational integration between or among two or more ALPA airlines that there is or will be a need for an integrated seniority list).

Thus fair and equitable integration. So all current Pinnacle pilots will not be 900 captains and all Mesaba jet pilots will not be your fo's. Colgan will not be stapled etc, etc, etc. People need to think about what is fair and what continues to set precedent for "proper" SLI. You need to support your now fellow pilots because you will get nowhere with a me mentality. We need to settle for nothing less than the best of all of our contracts. If uncle phil wants this to happen he's going to have to pay to make it happen.
 

rene

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Very well said, I agree. All of us together are better than any of us alone.
 

sinkrate

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tomuch
Will the pilots of all three groups please read ALPA national merger policies before spouting off in the crew room, employee bus, etc.

First off there have been no negotiations on SLI (YET). So anything you hear, ie DOH, 1:3 Ratio, relative seniority, LOA, staple are rumors.

Regardless of what Pinnacle Inc. calls this transaction ie merger, acquisition, asset transfer it does not matter. According to the ALPA policy manual:

(a “merger” is defined as a situation where there is a reasonable probability of sufficient operational integration between or among two or more ALPA airlines that there is or will be a need for an integrated seniority list).

Thus fair and equitable integration. So all current Pinnacle pilots will not be 900 captains and all Mesaba jet pilots will not be your fo's. Colgan will not be stapled etc, etc, etc. People need to think about what is fair and what continues to set precedent for "proper" SLI. You need to support your now fellow pilots because you will get nowhere with a me mentality. We need to settle for nothing less than the best of all of our contracts. If uncle phil wants this to happen he's going to have to pay to make it happen.

I'll agree they do need to 'get the facts' and perhaps learn how past mergers have worked. However - there is one 'fact' you are missing. ALPA policy is just that - an internal policy with no standing in a court dispute. A signed labor Agreement, as amended, is a binding contract enforcable by the NMB and the Federal Courts. Pinnacle and Mesaba have been through this before in 1997, when Mesaba was given the MSP hub. The Mesaba pilots insisted on long term reciprocal rights in that deal. As a result there is a binding Labor Agreement management may choose to use. If they do, it will be difficult, protracted, and risky for the Mesaba pilots to get out of.

All that said, everyone is all worked up for little reason. In the end, no matter how the SLI is worked out, everyone will be in the same seat, equipment and domicile they are now. Management won't have it any other way. The Mesaba pilots will have some difficult decisions if management attempts to take half their longevity. I doubt management will care how the SLI is done. A 'relative' seniority scheme should be acceptable to all parties. What we are really arguing over is future bidding order.

I expect the real challenge will be achieving a joint CBA. Management could tie that up in arbitration for a long time. Knowing them well, I expect they have a path to an Agreement that will have an arbitrator hand us our Agreement. Whether we like it or not.
 

PCL_128

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However - there is one 'fact' you are missing. ALPA policy is just that - an internal policy with no standing in a court dispute.

That's not a fact at all. McCaskill-Bond, the legislation passed a couple of years ago dealing with airline mergers, codifies internal union policy as being the law of the land when a merger is to take place between two employee groups in the same union covered under the same merger policy. In the absence of an internal policy, Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs apply and are binding. In addition, the Pinnacle and Mesaba contracts both codify ALPA merger policy as being binding.

I expect the real challenge will be achieving a joint CBA. Management could tie that up in arbitration for a long time. Knowing them well, I expect they have a path to an Agreement that will have an arbitrator hand us our Agreement. Whether we like it or not.

Management has no standing, either under the law or under your contract, to take your contract dispute to arbitration. The PCL pilots and CJC pilots are both in Section 6 negotiations, which only allow for arbitration if both parties consent, and the Mesaba pilots still haven't reached the amendable date of their CBA. Worst case, you simply wait for a JCBA until management is willing to bargain over it. Best case, management bargains right away and you get a deal. But they can't force you into arbitration for a JCBA.
 

sinkrate

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That's not a fact at all. McCaskill-Bond, the legislation passed a couple of years ago dealing with airline mergers, codifies internal union policy as being the law of the land when a merger is to take place between two employee groups in the same union covered under the same merger policy. In the absence of an internal policy, Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs apply and are binding. In addition, the Pinnacle and Mesaba contracts both codify ALPA merger policy as being binding.



Management has no standing, either under the law or under your contract, to take your contract dispute to arbitration. The PCL pilots and CJC pilots are both in Section 6 negotiations, which only allow for arbitration if both parties consent, and the Mesaba pilots still haven't reached the amendable date of their CBA. Worst case, you simply wait for a JCBA until management is willing to bargain over it. Best case, management bargains right away and you get a deal. But they can't force you into arbitration for a JCBA.

Re read my post. The SLI will comply with the applicable Federal law. Separate that from the Mesaba pilots longevity. They are two separate issues. I think the law is silent on the longevity issue. Mesaba does not own any RJ's. They do not have any routes or ground operations of their own. They are an ACMI carrier. You better read LOA 6/21 again. I don't know if management will use it but they have indicated they will. That LOA modifies section one of both Agreements, in the event of an 'asset transfer'.
 

rene

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Re read my post. The SLI will comply with the applicable Federal law. Separate that from the Mesaba pilots longevity. They are two separate issues. I think the law is silent on the longevity issue. Mesaba does not own any RJ's. They do not have any routes or ground operations of their own. They are an ACMI carrier. You better read LOA 6/21 again. I don't know if management will use it but they have indicated they will. That LOA modifies section one of both Agreements, in the event of an 'asset transfer'.

Pinnacle/Mesaba management would NEVER try that tactic. It would be the equivelant of nuclear war. Remember there are still performance requirements in the Delta agreement and they need to run a very good operation to stay in business. They cannot run any kind of operation if they alienate all the pilots.
 

Simon Says

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Anyone reading Sinkrate's posts....Just disregard. He might sound like he knows what he is talking about, but he really doesn't know a thing about this. He uses great terms and sounds quite intellegant on the issues, but please disregard.

Since sinkrate is going to be defending himself and his vast knowledge of mergers and ALPA's policies and people may get confused of who to believe. This is what I want anyone that has worried and sick feelings that this guy knows what he is talking about.

Simply print any of his posts you may have questions on. Then call your rep and ask about it. They will be glad to not only tell you the false hoods of his words, but prove it in contract sections, paragraph, and lines.

Sinkrate is the kind of guy that likes to sound smart. I must admit that he does do that. As for the quality of his information...very, very poor.
 

CptMurf

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Re read my post. The SLI will comply with the applicable Federal law. Separate that from the Mesaba pilots longevity. They are two separate issues. I think the law is silent on the longevity issue. Mesaba does not own any RJ's. They do not have any routes or ground operations of their own. They are an ACMI carrier. You better read LOA 6/21 again. I don't know if management will use it but they have indicated they will. That LOA modifies section one of both Agreements, in the event of an 'asset transfer'.
Read it several times lately. Even carry a copy now on my commute, so I can show those that "ARE SURE" what it says.

The LOA was a one time deal. The dates, aircraft, everything, was very specific to that deal in '97. The ONLY thing that is current in it is the last section, which was the "Reciprical Agreement", which states
"In the event that a transaction such as the one which gave rise to this Letter of Agreement occurs in the future, where such transaction involves in a net loss of pilot positions at Mesaba and a net gain of pilot positions at Express, it is hereby agreed that the parties shall enter into a Letter of Agreement to provide for the transfer of Mesaba pilots to Express, under terms and conditions no less favorable than the terms and conditions of this Letter of Agreement."
Which in itself implys new negotiations and terms for an integration method.​

Mgmt. has never brought this LOA up. In fact, when it was asked of Trenary in an XJ recurrent that he was in about 2 weeks ago, his answer was that the integration would be up to terms negotiated by ALPA. The only ones bringing it up are 9E pilots on these boards. I will be glad when they stop too. It is an ignorant (and arrogant) position to stand on, considering most that quote it, know nothing of how/why it was negotiated, implemented, or whether it was considered a good deal or not. Not to mention, if 9E pilots are truely upset on "how XJ screwed our pilots" (which they weren't), why are the same 9E pilots so intent on screwing those same individuals again.

So to anyone that thinks this LOA can be, or will be used is fooling themselves, and causing a huge rift, that may result in some hostile negotiations. I believe instead, that we need to accept that we are on the same team now. And we have to work together to preserve and capture the best of both contracts in a productive SLI agreement.
 

XJohXJ

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One fair list.

One fair contract.

One resolute pilot team working together for the benefit of the whole group.

That is the only goal.
 

Simon Says

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Read it several times lately. Even carry a copy now on my commute, so I can show those that "ARE SURE" what it says.

The LOA was a one time deal. The dates, aircraft, everything, was very specific to that deal in '97. The ONLY thing that is current in it is the last section, which was the "Reciprical Agreement", which states
"In the event that a transaction such as the one which gave rise to this Letter of Agreement occurs in the future, where such transaction involves in a net loss of pilot positions at Mesaba and a net gain of pilot positions at Express, it is hereby agreed that the parties shall enter into a Letter of Agreement to provide for the transfer of Mesaba pilots to Express, under terms and conditions no less favorable than the terms and conditions of this Letter of Agreement."
Which in itself implys new negotiations and terms for an integration method.

Mgmt. has never brought this LOA up. In fact, when it was asked of Trenary in an XJ recurrent that he was in about 2 weeks ago, his answer was that the integration would be up to terms negotiated by ALPA. The only ones bringing it up are 9E pilots on these boards. I will be glad when they stop too. It is an ignorant (and arrogant) position to stand on, considering most that quote it, know nothing of how/why it was negotiated, implemented, or whether it was considered a good deal or not. Not to mention, if 9E pilots are truely upset on "how XJ screwed our pilots" (which they weren't), why are the same 9E pilots so intent on screwing those same individuals again.

So to anyone that thinks this LOA can be, or will be used is fooling themselves, and causing a huge rift, that may result in some hostile negotiations. I believe instead, that we need to accept that we are on the same team now. And we have to work together to preserve and capture the best of both contracts in a productive SLI agreement.


Spot on!
 

Simon Says

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While we are at it.

Differences for Mesaba Pilots and 9E pilots if the company wants to see this as a merger or asset transfer.

Wait for it......Wait for it,

























NOTHING! Section 1 of our contract deals with both issues the same way.
 

flyn96

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Re read my post. The SLI will comply with the applicable Federal law. Separate that from the Mesaba pilots longevity. They are two separate issues. I think the law is silent on the longevity issue. Mesaba does not own any RJ's. They do not have any routes or ground operations of their own. They are an ACMI carrier. You better read LOA 6/21 again. I don't know if management will use it but they have indicated they will. That LOA modifies section one of both Agreements, in the event of an 'asset transfer'.

Again it DOES NOT matter what Pinnacle Inc. wants to call it. It falls under the language of a "merger" according to ALPA by laws. Lawyers and CEO's can call it whatever they want but the fact remains that you are combining "merging" two seniority lists. That is black and white under the ALPA policy.

Also the 97 LOA applies to a net loss and net gain, as you said its a transfer of assets (aircraft) from one certificate to another. Both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots are to be combined under ONE list there is no loss or gain when you are both in the same place.
 

xjhawk

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One fair list.

One fair contract.

One resolute pilot team working together for the benefit of the whole group.

That is the only goal.

Agree!

Oh and from what I know that LOA that was back in 97' is not something that can be thrown in anyones faces. Oh and by the way, the guys that transfered way back when, they are all happy here at mesaba. Lets make this us (pilots) against Pinnacle inc, stand together and get something good out of this for all of us.
 

MACH-TUCK

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As a Pinnacle captain I can assure you that we (9E) pilots want a fair integration of all three lists. We all need to just relax and wait till all three MEC's meet next week in DC, then we will know more about whats going to happen. Please don't assume that we ALL are going around spouting off some BS LOA.
 

ChickenSled

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Pinnacle/Mesaba management would NEVER try that tactic. It would be the equivelant of nuclear war. Remember there are still performance requirements in the Delta agreement and they need to run a very good operation to stay in business. They cannot run any kind of operation if they alienate all the pilots.

You guys all look so cute when you stick your chest out and say stuff like this.

This will all go down the way Garvin and that big brain of his has figured out. If it is good for 9E, 9L, or XJ pilots is irrelevant, Nonconnah doesn't care. What is going to happen will be what is the most financially advantageous for Pinnacle Corp. We can file suit after suit, grievance after grievance, but they will just sit there and smile while it drags on for years and they bask in the knowledge they did what ever they wanted with impunity. On the off chance the pilots win a suit or arbitration three or four years from now, they will counter sue or just plain old ignore it and smile some more as we spend the next few years trying to get it enforced.

The guy who said everyone will stay in their seat and base, you got it right, that is what to expect in the short term. The solution with the least expense is the one you will see.

As to running any kind of operation with "alienated" pilots. They seem to have mastered that trick.

I love it when I get on here and see comments like "these are Mesaba pilots they are dealing with now", "this is a whole new ballgame my friend...", "we can show those rednecks how our superior training department works", et. al. You guys are giving Delta and AA mainline pilots a good run for the most arrogant pilots award. You guys need to calm down because the 9E pilots are going to remember all these remarks.

But what is truly disgusting is some of the bloodlust I've seen from fellow 9E pilots. Just the scent of an upgrade or a hard line has sent some of us into an all out frenzy. I saw on a different board a post by a 9E First Officer (using atrocious spelling and grammar) giving a direct criticism to the Union Chair, saying in essence: "how can you be wasting time giving a good deal to the XJ furloughs when you should be concentrating your efforts on a 4-1 integration." I believe this young man is related to the guy who shot Kennedy. And he is far from the only one saying such things. You guys need to calm down because the XJ pilots are going to remember all these remarks.

In a couple of years when whatever fences might go up come down, we are going to have the most unhappy cockpits in the entire industry.
 
Last edited:

Mel Sharples

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You I love it when I get on here and see comments like "these are Mesaba pilots they are dealing with now", "this is a whole new ballgame my friend...", "we can show those rednecks how our superior training department works", et. al. You guys are giving Delta and AA mainline pilots a good run for the most arrogant pilots award. You guys need to calm down because the 9E pilots are going to remember all these remarks.

While I don't want to fan the flames either, this is a different pilot group. Have the 9E pilots been through 1113c in bankruptcy? Have you shut the company down for a couple of days to get a new contract? Have the 9E pilots told management to shove it when they dangled the idea of new CRJ flying in return for concessions?

No one is saying we are "better" and we are not trying to be arrogant. But we have been screwed with and screwed over many, many times in the past 15 years and in recent memory we have repeated fought like he11 to preserve what we have. Saying that we aren't going to take crap from Pinnacle management hardly makes us arrogant.

As far as training goes, do your instructors and check airmen go out of their way to help you pass (legally) and more important LEARN something from every training event? Do they go out of their way to make sure they are doing everything by the book? Do they do their jobs and not cave it to pressure from management? Is Pinnacle doing advanced stall training before it is even mandated by the FAA?

Again, it's not that our poop doesn't stink. But we have an excellent training department and the people genuinely care about the pilots. That is not a shot at the Pinnacle pilots but simply pride in our organization.

You'll find that the Mesaba pilots have a lot of pride. If that's arrogant to you, then tough luck.
 

DoinTime

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Again, it's not that our poop doesn't stink. But we have an excellent training department and the people genuinely care about the pilots. That is not a shot at the Pinnacle pilots but simply pride in our organization.

We got a bunch of rednecks in our training department...doesn't that count for anything?
 

higney85

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I would say our training dept is pretty darn good. I recently did my LOFT (now on a 6 mo schedule for FO's and CA's) and learned a good bit! Stalls and such are after the simulated flight and even had time for V1 cuts and a SE go around with a TR deployment for practice. Training is just as much the instructor as the student- if you walk out of the box learning something new I would call it successful. I personally know many of the check airman and APD's and they are there for the pilots. I am not knocking the XJ training dept, but will support ours. XJ's safety record should count to show that the training dept at XJ is very good as well.
 
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