Mesa training.....any input?

[d_van_nostrand]

Pondering the thought of joining MAPD P.A.C.E. program. Would like to hear from people who are in the program or have first hand knowledge of the situation. Seems like a good deal for a fairly low time guy?
3 5 0 thanks for your input!

 

[mmmdonut]

lol.... ahhhh you have so much to learn

 

[plunger]

from what i hear the program works. you just have to decide if you want to work for mesa. i've heard the pay is terrible (worse than other carriers) and the ceo is a tool. but hey, i guess it's better than instructing for 2000 hrs.

 

[wheelsup]

Like plunger said, it beats instructing for 2000 hours. I have first hand knowledge and the system works well. For PACE guys, the pass rate (for hiring) is slightly lower because they haven't had the time to acclimate to the procedures etc. I believe it's around 85% or so, but don't quote me.

A round of students/graduates just left for ground school two weeks ago - guys with 250 hrs TT will be in the right seat of a CRJ. I think its funny how people say the pay sucks, but it's better than what you'd make as a CFI and a lot less work at that. I'd much rather be in a jet than a light single...

~wheelsup

 

[ROJO]

I went through the entire Mesa ab-initio program and can say that it completely delivered on its promises. I finished the program under budget a little bit, but it is still an expensive program. Farmington NM sucks, but that has a distinct advantage: you have little to distract you from your singular mission of studying and training. I finished with my ratings and 273 total flight hours. They hired me and put my into the Dash-8. Getting through Dash-8 training was probably the toughest thing I've ever done, and half my class washed out (the failures were mostly off-the-street pilots). However, if you study hard, and dedicate yourself fully, you can do it. They don't grease the training standards for the Mesa program grads. You have to pass the 121 checkrides by flying to ATP standards, just like everyone else. Anyway, I passed and flew just one bid cycle on reserve, then held a line on the Dash-8, just like that.

I thought the program delivered MORE than I expected, and the PACE program is just as good. I don't fly for the airlines anymore; I left to take a job in the foreign service. Mesa does not pay well, as you may have heard, but all my former classmates are now captains on the ERJs and CRJs, which is livable money. Some of my classmates were recently hired at SWA. Aside from the low pay, I felt I was treated pretty well by Meas, but times have changed, and most of the people there are groaning about one thing or another. The fact is, the industry is tough right now, and regional airlines, while cushier than many other flying gigs, are never going to be gravy.

Check out the program thoroughly. It's not for everybody, but it will work for you if you study hard, work hard and present yourself as a professional. It's a hard program, but it will deliver on its promises. Hope this helps. Good luck!

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa pay-for-interview

Pondering the thought of joining MAPD P.A.C.E. program. Would like to hear from people who are in the program or have first hand knowledge of the situation. Seems like a good deal for a fairly low time guy?

I second the comments above about the MAPD ab initio program only. I taught in that program. It is a fine program because it works and is not P-F-T.

On the other hand, MAPD PACE is just another version of a pay-for-interview scheme Mesa has had for years. The pay-for-training and pay-for-job aspect aside, you have to bear in mind that you are not guaranteed a job. In other words, you might be interviewed but not hired. So, where does that leave you? Out a lot of money and with a lot of useless time in your logbook.

Mesa has taken pay-for-interview to a whole new level with its PLUS program. Cost is $6K; more if you need more sim time, at $225 an hour. The kicker here is you must have 1500 total-100 multi before you can enroll. To get right to the point, why bother with this program when the time above meets or exceed the quals required for most other commuters??? E.g, ExpressJets, where, I read on the board, requirements have been lowered to 700 total-100 of multi!

It has been said that a sucker is born every minute, though it wasn't P.T. Barnum who said it. Don't be sucked in to pay-for-interview.

 

[IP076]

Better than instructing????

Pay, lets see, I make more instructing than a 3rd year RJ FO at Mesa.

Work Rules... I make my own schedule

HOME for Dinner,
sleep in MY BED

Instructing 4, Mesa Pilot 0.....

Just the way I see it.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Or,
The fastest single track right into the CESSPOOL.
Be careful what you wish for.
PBR

 

[bobbysamd]

Riddle instructing

Better than instructing????

Pay, lets see, I make more instructing than a 3rd year RJ FO at Mesa.

Work Rules... I make my own schedule

HOME for Dinner,
sleep in MY BED

Instructing 4, Mesa Pilot 0.....

Just the way I see it.

Good comments. ERAU was my first full-time aviation job and my best aviation job. I don't remember from thirteen years ago how much I made per contact hour, but I remember that instructors, including myself, were bonused if we billed at least one-thousand contact hours a year. It wasn't all that hard to do, once you learned the Riddle system (and runaround) and it added up to a nice chunk of change. I was upgraded to stage check pilot, which was salaried. The pay was very comparable to commuter captain pay of the day, and I did not have to worry about billing enough contact hours.

Having said all that, Mesa is a means to an end, by not by way of its pay-for-interview and semi-P-F-T MINUS (PLUS) programs. Moreover, no one says you have to stay at Mesa forever, though I know of some people who are. And, eventually, and we're talking about a long eventually, regional pay has a greater upside than instructing.

 

[sandslob]

I'm doing my flight training with mesa. I have to say they are VERY professional and I'm VERY happy. I did my research before I started. I had my reasons why I chose Mesa over others... PM me if you want more info....


Fly because you want to... NOT for the $$$.

sandslob
www.lifeisabeach.us

 

[350DRIVER]

bobby,

You usually have some beneficial information to bring to this topic but I disagree with you with regards to your comments about the interview and process. I am pretty close friends with a senior check airman at Mesa and have been for years so I can tell you after speaking with him (he also does interviews) that if you make it to the interview then you basically have the job. Very very seldom does the interview board turn away a Mesa grad coming out of the programs that they offer, this is a fact. If you make it to the interview then you will get the job, bottom line... You pretty much have to screw something up and work at it rather hard to get turned away after being trained the Mesa way from day 1. I know many who have went through the programs at MAPD and they all got hired and many have moved on to bigger and greener pastures. It is easy to assume things but this isn't nearly some sort of ''gamble" as you seem to think it may be.

Mesa is in no way a "career" airline but it is a pretty good stepping stone to get your foot into the door for many of the "low timers" who do not have many options. This is by far hands down the quickest way to get to the right seat of a 121 operation.

nostrand, don't even worry about this, you get the interview and you will get the job. This is not nearly as big of a gamble as some would lead one to believe.

good luck to you

3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

Murphy's Law

Very very seldom does the interview board turn away a Mesa grad coming out of the programs that they offer, this is a fact. If you make it to the interview then you will get the job, bottom line... You pretty much have to screw something up and work at it rather hard to get turned away after being trained the Mesa way from day 1.

I instructed at MAPD and had a student who heretofore had antagonized everyone. This individual had been injured in the military and, for that reason, believed that everyone owed him. He was assigned to me, probably because I was new, and, eventually, he antagonized me. I took this matter to the Chief Instructor, who decided that this individual could finish the program but was not worthy of getting "the interview."

Getting "the interview" very well may be a done deal for most MAPD attendees, but it is not guaranteed, nor is getting hired. If something can go wrong, it will.

 

[350DRIVER]

I instructed at MAPD and had a student who heretofore had antagonized everyone. This individual had been injured in the military and, for that reason, believed that everyone owed him. He was assigned to me, probably because I was new, and, eventually, he antagonized me. I took this matter to the Chief Instructor, who decided that this individual could finish the program but was not worthy of getting "the interview."

Getting "the interview" very well may be a done deal for most MAPD attendees, but it is not guaranteed, nor is getting hired. If something can go wrong, it will.

bobby,

As I previously stated in my initial response, there are those rare cases such as your example that justify the MAPD grad not getting hired. I am a tad surprised that Castle, Crystal & company even allowed a "problem" to continue to stay in the program and make it to the interview process, usually this will not happen since the policy has been to wash them out and not allow them to continue to disrupt the flow of the program. This is the same as the famous "deadlines" that the students/instructors "color in" on the flow chart board to track expected and required progress, you fall too far behind, blow it off, lack initiative, get too many letters of reprimand in your file, etc, then you probably will not make it to the end either. These folks who run the program have no patience for people who intentionally try to disrupt a "perfectly tweaked machine." They put the official letters of reprimand in the students file for a reason, you accumulate enough of them then adios, cya, bye bye.. They certainly do this for a reason, to weed those out who are not complying to what is in place and expected. If my memory serves me correct it was John Green (ex-MAPD COO) who is now at UPS who started this practice which continues to this day.

I have heard very similar stories as you have stated but the difference is that those who were the "cause" of problems were sent packing and home before they could even think about completing the program or interview. Keep your nose clean, study hard, keep a low profile, do what is expected, and work your butt off then you will get the job, bottom line... Screw up, cause problems, etc, then you most likely won't even make it to the interview.

The interview IS most certainly guaranteed for all those who successfully complete these programs, this has been the biggest selling point from day 1 which still continues to this day. This is probably the single most important reason that low time pilots decide to go this route, you won't have many other options upon completion of this program if you don't make it through the program.

A friend of mine who completed the program in 97 spent a year as a 1900 first officer, upgraded to captain, spent another year there, got hired on as a B757 FO at ATA where he is at present day and on his days off he is one of the "Jet Sim" instructors at MAPD and he has also verified the above. His entire MAPD class didn't even interview in PHX, they went right to ground school since Mesa was extremely short on first officers and the interview board knew that they would be successful since they made it this far and they knew the "product" that they were getting. This has happened to more than a few MAPD classes..


The bottom line is that this program works and you will most certainly get the interview if you are successful in this program, no strings attached. I don't think this is nearly as big of a gamble as some tend to believe, I think it is quite the opposite in fact.

Keep in mind that you also need to interview to before you even get accepted into the program, this is done for a reason. The program may be a money maker for Mesa Airlines but in no way, shape, or form is it a scam.

No program or airline will "guarantee" a job, this holds true pretty much in any industry that you look into. YOU (the student) must put the work in to be successful, you won't be "spoon fed" in Farmington and one should not expect that. If you expect that then you will be writing your own ticket out of Farmington.

With that said this is still by far the best program out there in my opinion that is the fastest way to get to the regionals. I have and will continue to suggest this program for those who are interested in getting into the right seat in the shortest amount of time possible.

Put the odds in your favor and minimize the risk and vulnerability factors and all will go well. I look at this program in comparison to the Delta Connection program and the difference is like night and day.

nostrand- be smart, do the research, speak to those who have been through this program and I am pretty sure that you will be in agreement with what I am saying. I would be more than happy to address any additional specifics that you may have, feel free to continue to pm me. I would also suggest that you give the MAPD program a call and they will put you in contact with current as well as former students who will tell you like it is and what can and will be expected of you during your time in Farmington.

good luck,

3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

Mapd

bobby,

As I previously stated in my initial response, there are those rare cases such as your example that justify the MAPD grad not getting hired. I am a tad surprised that Castle, Crystal & company even allowed a "problem" to continue to stay in the program and make it to the interview process, usually this will not happen since the policy has been to wash them out and not allow them to continue to disrupt the flow of the program.

My case happened while John Green was the Chief Flight Instructor. Rich Castle is after my time at MAPD, so I cannot speak for those times. I recall at least one more recalicitrant type I had who refused to learn callouts and was generally argumentative. But I believe he was through after his first term.

This is the same as the famous "deadlines" that the students/instructors "color in" on the flow chart board to track expected and required progress, you fall too far behind, blow it off, lack initiative, get too many letters of reprimand in your file, etc, then you probably will not make it to the end either . . . . . If my memory serves me correct it was John Green (ex-MAPD COO) who is now at UPS who started this practice which continues to this day.

You are correct. That (stupid) flow chart was created on butcher paper or something and posted, perhaps, in the same room as the vending machines. It's been more than eleven years, so I don't remember exactly. (So, that's what happened to John Green . . . .)

I call that chart stupid because, in my $0.02 opinion, it was a distraction to learning for many students. I had another student at MAPD who was so obsessed with that chart and was in such a rush to complete his flights that he was not thinking enough about learning. I told him repeatedly that if he would just think about learning and have less of a hard-on about the chart that the chart would take care of itself. At that time I had already given about 4200 hours of flight instruction at two other well-known 141 schools and as an independent instructor, and had given stage checks and/or pre-stage checks at both schools, so I believed I knew what I was talking about regarding flight training. This was the individual about whom I have written in the past who landed at an airport for which I did not sign him off and the school did not approve during one of his cross-countries. By rights, I could have had a chat about him with the Chief Instructor about what he did, but I didn't.

Keep your nose clean, study hard, keep a low profile, do what is expected, and work your butt off then you will get the job, bottom line... Screw up, cause problems, etc, then you most likely won't even make it to the interview.

That is the point I've tried to make nearly every time I post about MAPD. But, people have to realize going-in that there is virtually no tolerance for messing-up, screwing-up, screwing-off and screwoffs in the MAPD program. In other words, keep up with the program, do what you are told and keep your yap buttoned, and you will make it to the promised land of "the interview."

No program or airline will "guarantee" a job, this holds true pretty much in any industry that you look into. YOU (the student) must put the work in to be successful, you won't be "spoon fed" in Farmington and one should not expect that. If you expect that then you will be writing your own ticket out of Farmington.

(emphasis added)

Here again, same point I'm trying to make, about MAPD and any other alternative to traditional time-building, and airline hiring, generally.

It may appear that 350 and I do not agree about MAPD. Not really. I have recommended MAPD's ab initio program only as much or more as I have recommended FlightSafety. I worked at both. I know both. I like both. Just beware of the risks and decide which one, or other program, suits your needs, goals and personality the best. If you are a person who is uncooperative, complains, questions things, generally disagrees with things, questions authority, not accepting of instruction, or are generally argumentative and expects to be catered-to, then MAPD may not be for you. If you are disciplined, cooperative, and respectful and accepting of authority, instruction and rules, and do what you are asked, then MAPD and you might be a good fit.

 

[RSixer]

"Fly because you want to... NOT for the $$$."


AHHHHHHH, I remember those days.

 

[Night_Flight]

Good luck if you decide to do it!

I wouldn't...

-Night_Flight-

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I'm doing my flight training with mesa. I have to say they are VERY professional and I'm VERY happy. I did my research before I started. I had my reasons why I chose Mesa over others... PM me if you want more info....


Fly because you want to... NOT for the $$$.

sandslob
www.lifeisabeach.us

yup...this tool will be the same guy who is posting about poor QOL and $hit pay in his POS RJ 18 months from now.

But hey, "fly because you want to", "not for the $$$$"...


dip$hit.

 

[fasteddy69]

How much is the PACE program???

 

[mayday1]

I believe the PACE program is ~12-13k, plus all your other living expenses (I don't think they offer housing).

 

[bobbysamd]

Don't pick up the PACE

Here's the PACE webpage. Now, reread all the comments above and run a search on PACE, and think carefully about whether you really want to risk that kind of money on an interview.

 

[sandslob]

Just for the record. I'm not in the PACE program. I'm doing the program at ASU.

Gulfstream… I knew what I was getting into before I started. If you see me on this board in a few years being a “tool” and “posting about poor QOL and $hit pay” then please feel free to say “I told you so”. Until then, don’t make assumptions about what I plan to do in the future. For now, I'm just trying to get my education and learn how to fly. I'll worry about the future when and if it happens.

 

[weekendwarrior]

I think its funny how people say the pay sucks, but it's better than what you'd make as a CFI and a lot less work at that. I'd much rather be in a jet than a light single...

~wheelsup

I have to chime in here. I make $20/hour as a CFI and fly 80-100 hours/month. All PIC, not SIC gear pulling time. Last I heard the contract was somewhere around $18/hour, with 70 hours/month. I'll head to a 135 PIC multi flying rubber dogsh!t before I put myself in an SIC position for less money at Mesa. They are in my backyard, and could get on, but I choose not to. I'm hearing upgrade times to PIC are 4-5 years. Hotels, crash pads, sh!tty pay for SIC? No thanks.

Less work, maybe. But I go home every night, and don't have to listen to a bunch of union crap all the time!

 

[350DRIVER]

I have to chime in here. I make $20/hour as a CFI and fly 80-100 hours/month. All PIC, not SIC gear pulling time. Last I heard the contract was somewhere around $18/hour, with 70 hours/month. I'll head to a 135 PIC multi flying rubber dogsh!t before I put myself in an SIC position for less money at Mesa. They are in my backyard, and could get on, but I choose not to. I'm hearing upgrade times to PIC are 4-5 years. Hotels, crash pads, sh!tty pay for SIC? No thanks.

Less work, maybe. But I go home every night, and don't have to listen to a bunch of union crap all the time!

Take it one step further.... Make absolute sure you demand atleast say $80,000+ and anything less at the 135 level would not be acceptable. Quite a few of the right coast GV operators will start the fo's out at around that figure.

Please keep us informed on the big bucks that you make during your first 135 gig flying that "rubber dogsh!t" around.

3 5 0

 

[weekendwarrior]

I never said I would make big bucks. I'm simply saying that there is more money to make freight dogging at first than the first few years at Mesa. I'm not comparing this to any other regional.

Personally, I would rather pay my dues making low wages flying a 135 than right seat at Mesa. That's all I'm trying to say. There are many entry level 135 jobs, flying PIC that pay better than a FO at Mesa.

 

[350DRIVER]

I never said I would make big bucks. I'm simply saying that there is more money to make freight dogging at first than the first few years at Mesa. I'm not comparing this to any other regional.

Personally, I would rather pay my dues making low wages flying a 135 than right seat at Mesa. That's all I'm trying to say. There are many entry level 135 jobs, flying PIC that pay better than a FO at Mesa.

There are also quite a few 135 jobs out there that pay less, qol is worse, etc, in comparison to Mesa. I never said Mesa was a "career" airline but to get your foot in the door at 300 hours TT, fly for a few years there then move on to bigger and better things isn't nearly as bad of a move as some would tend to believe. The unique thing about the human being is that no two are the same, personal preferences at it's best.

3 5 0

 

[weekendwarrior]

True, QOL for some is not the same as others. Personally, I like being local. Hotel rooms get old pretty quick. Plus, some of the jobs I would be looking for after the fact, would want gobs of PIC time, not so much SIC.

 

[wheelsup]

True, QOL for some is not the same as others. Personally, I like being local. Hotel rooms get old pretty quick. Plus, some of the jobs I would be looking for after the fact, would want gobs of PIC time, not so much SIC.

An old friend recently went to expressjet after flying 135 for 4 years - he had over 4000 hours and 2500 multi pic turbine in a c90, and was currently PIC in the c90 and SIC in a Lear 35. He had two (2!) days off a month at this job. At expressjet, he told me he had 14-16 days off a month, and he just started there less than 6 months ago. I guess depending on what 135 company you work for, you'd be home at night more and spend more time at home, but he certainly spent more time away in hotel rooms than at home.

Pay is less intially, however in a few years he'll be making more at his current job then he WOULD EVER OF MADE at his 135 job even PIC in the Lear. I suppose if one wanted to remain in the 135 world, going 135 after getting your shot at a 121/135 carrier would be first choice, however I'm guessing for most bigger 121 carriers they'd want to see 121 experience. I can't see a downside to ever having too much PIC however...

~wheelsup

 

[RSixer]

Most 135 jobs do pay more than a F/O position at any commuter, plus your chances for PIC time are better at 135, but if you think about it 135 requires 1200 hours, commuters much less than that, so it gives oppourtunity to lower time people.

Fly because you want to... NOT for the $$$.

sandslob
www.lifeisabeach.us

That still makes me giggle a little bit.

 

[Flyin Tony]

So with the PACE program they will take you with 250TT give you your Instrument, Commercial, Multi-Engine Land for 13K and give you a interview with mesa, also 20 hours of BE-58 Baron training and sim time?
Lets say you do get hired at mesa, you will be sitting right seat for a few years on a RJ or B1900 working the gear and flaps?
Would this be good to do? To build time (but its SIC) ect ect if you do get a job with Mesa?
This kinda sound fishy to me.

 

[350DRIVER]

So with the PACE program they will take you with 250TT give you your Instrument, Commercial, Multi-Engine Land for 13K and give you a interview with mesa, also 20 hours of BE-58 Baron training and sim time?
Lets say you do get hired at mesa, you will be sitting right seat for a few years on a RJ or B1900 working the gear and flaps?
Would this be good to do? To build time (but its SIC) ect ect if you do get a job with Mesa?
This kinda sound fishy to me.

I will bite for the last and final time just for sh!ts and giggles. Nothing is "fishy" about this program or the other programs that are offered by the MAPD program. You will start out as a first officer at any regional, major, etc, so this time is not "useless" but a mandatory step in the right direction until you have the time, experience, senority, etc, to be able to upgrade to captain and log the "golden" pic time. This whole notion of sitting there and just playing with the flaps and gear is somewhat comical, you will swap legs with the captain and be flying the aircraft 50% of the time that you occupy that right seat.

If you want a fast track to the regionals then this is a program that many consider and go through. If you are not worried about time then by all means flight instruct, fly freight, cargo, etc.

Different strokes for different folks,

3 5 0