Mesa training.....any input?

[sandslob]

Just for the record. I'm not in the PACE program. I'm doing the program at ASU.

Gulfstream… I knew what I was getting into before I started. If you see me on this board in a few years being a “tool” and “posting about poor QOL and $hit pay” then please feel free to say “I told you so”. Until then, don’t make assumptions about what I plan to do in the future. For now, I'm just trying to get my education and learn how to fly. I'll worry about the future when and if it happens.

 

[weekendwarrior]

I think its funny how people say the pay sucks, but it's better than what you'd make as a CFI and a lot less work at that. I'd much rather be in a jet than a light single...

~wheelsup

I have to chime in here. I make $20/hour as a CFI and fly 80-100 hours/month. All PIC, not SIC gear pulling time. Last I heard the contract was somewhere around $18/hour, with 70 hours/month. I'll head to a 135 PIC multi flying rubber dogsh!t before I put myself in an SIC position for less money at Mesa. They are in my backyard, and could get on, but I choose not to. I'm hearing upgrade times to PIC are 4-5 years. Hotels, crash pads, sh!tty pay for SIC? No thanks.

Less work, maybe. But I go home every night, and don't have to listen to a bunch of union crap all the time!

 

[350DRIVER]

I have to chime in here. I make $20/hour as a CFI and fly 80-100 hours/month. All PIC, not SIC gear pulling time. Last I heard the contract was somewhere around $18/hour, with 70 hours/month. I'll head to a 135 PIC multi flying rubber dogsh!t before I put myself in an SIC position for less money at Mesa. They are in my backyard, and could get on, but I choose not to. I'm hearing upgrade times to PIC are 4-5 years. Hotels, crash pads, sh!tty pay for SIC? No thanks.

Less work, maybe. But I go home every night, and don't have to listen to a bunch of union crap all the time!

Take it one step further.... Make absolute sure you demand atleast say $80,000+ and anything less at the 135 level would not be acceptable. Quite a few of the right coast GV operators will start the fo's out at around that figure.

Please keep us informed on the big bucks that you make during your first 135 gig flying that "rubber dogsh!t" around.

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[weekendwarrior]

I never said I would make big bucks. I'm simply saying that there is more money to make freight dogging at first than the first few years at Mesa. I'm not comparing this to any other regional.

Personally, I would rather pay my dues making low wages flying a 135 than right seat at Mesa. That's all I'm trying to say. There are many entry level 135 jobs, flying PIC that pay better than a FO at Mesa.

 

[350DRIVER]

I never said I would make big bucks. I'm simply saying that there is more money to make freight dogging at first than the first few years at Mesa. I'm not comparing this to any other regional.

Personally, I would rather pay my dues making low wages flying a 135 than right seat at Mesa. That's all I'm trying to say. There are many entry level 135 jobs, flying PIC that pay better than a FO at Mesa.

There are also quite a few 135 jobs out there that pay less, qol is worse, etc, in comparison to Mesa. I never said Mesa was a "career" airline but to get your foot in the door at 300 hours TT, fly for a few years there then move on to bigger and better things isn't nearly as bad of a move as some would tend to believe. The unique thing about the human being is that no two are the same, personal preferences at it's best.

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[weekendwarrior]

True, QOL for some is not the same as others. Personally, I like being local. Hotel rooms get old pretty quick. Plus, some of the jobs I would be looking for after the fact, would want gobs of PIC time, not so much SIC.

 

[wheelsup]

True, QOL for some is not the same as others. Personally, I like being local. Hotel rooms get old pretty quick. Plus, some of the jobs I would be looking for after the fact, would want gobs of PIC time, not so much SIC.

An old friend recently went to expressjet after flying 135 for 4 years - he had over 4000 hours and 2500 multi pic turbine in a c90, and was currently PIC in the c90 and SIC in a Lear 35. He had two (2!) days off a month at this job. At expressjet, he told me he had 14-16 days off a month, and he just started there less than 6 months ago. I guess depending on what 135 company you work for, you'd be home at night more and spend more time at home, but he certainly spent more time away in hotel rooms than at home.

Pay is less intially, however in a few years he'll be making more at his current job then he WOULD EVER OF MADE at his 135 job even PIC in the Lear. I suppose if one wanted to remain in the 135 world, going 135 after getting your shot at a 121/135 carrier would be first choice, however I'm guessing for most bigger 121 carriers they'd want to see 121 experience. I can't see a downside to ever having too much PIC however...

~wheelsup

 

[RSixer]

Most 135 jobs do pay more than a F/O position at any commuter, plus your chances for PIC time are better at 135, but if you think about it 135 requires 1200 hours, commuters much less than that, so it gives oppourtunity to lower time people.

Fly because you want to... NOT for the $$$.

sandslob
www.lifeisabeach.us

That still makes me giggle a little bit.

 

[Flyin Tony]

So with the PACE program they will take you with 250TT give you your Instrument, Commercial, Multi-Engine Land for 13K and give you a interview with mesa, also 20 hours of BE-58 Baron training and sim time?
Lets say you do get hired at mesa, you will be sitting right seat for a few years on a RJ or B1900 working the gear and flaps?
Would this be good to do? To build time (but its SIC) ect ect if you do get a job with Mesa?
This kinda sound fishy to me.

 

[350DRIVER]

So with the PACE program they will take you with 250TT give you your Instrument, Commercial, Multi-Engine Land for 13K and give you a interview with mesa, also 20 hours of BE-58 Baron training and sim time?
Lets say you do get hired at mesa, you will be sitting right seat for a few years on a RJ or B1900 working the gear and flaps?
Would this be good to do? To build time (but its SIC) ect ect if you do get a job with Mesa?
This kinda sound fishy to me.

I will bite for the last and final time just for sh!ts and giggles. Nothing is "fishy" about this program or the other programs that are offered by the MAPD program. You will start out as a first officer at any regional, major, etc, so this time is not "useless" but a mandatory step in the right direction until you have the time, experience, senority, etc, to be able to upgrade to captain and log the "golden" pic time. This whole notion of sitting there and just playing with the flaps and gear is somewhat comical, you will swap legs with the captain and be flying the aircraft 50% of the time that you occupy that right seat.

If you want a fast track to the regionals then this is a program that many consider and go through. If you are not worried about time then by all means flight instruct, fly freight, cargo, etc.

Different strokes for different folks,

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[wheelsup]

So with the PACE program they will take you with 250TT give you your Instrument, Commercial, Multi-Engine Land for 13K and give you a interview with mesa, also 20 hours of BE-58 Baron training and sim time?
Lets say you do get hired at mesa, you will be sitting right seat for a few years on a RJ or B1900 working the gear and flaps?
Would this be good to do? To build time (but its SIC) ect ect if you do get a job with Mesa?
This kinda sound fishy to me.

Nope. You go into the PACE program with a Comm/Multi/Inst and assoc. degree. You can elect to go into it without the multi and get it in the process but thats your option. You might say why do 20 hours in a B58 if you already have a multi - you'd be surprised of the skill level of some people that come here - they REALLY need it.

You pay 12-13k for some multi time and 40 hrs of CRJ Level 6 training, as well as ground school on the CRJ systems. You get an interview with Mesa after completion and in good standing, and most people pass the interview. I believe I stated on another post that about 85% of the PACE guys get hired who start the program. The ab-initio is much higher, right now running 100% for the last year or two, I think average over lifetime is about 90-95%.

The ab-initio I believe is a great deal. The actual flight training costs about $44,000 or so, and while higher than doing it 61, is much lower than most other 141 schools around. And, you fly '91 and above Beechcraft A36 and B58's - not little 152's (even to solo in!).

ANYONE that gets hired at a 121 carrier will be sitting right seat doing gear and flaps. I had friends go to ASA at 250-300 TT and they're still doing that. It's not just at Mesa...hell anyone who goes to a regional now even if you had 10,000 hours is gonna be an F/O.

It depends on what you'd like to accomplish. If you want to 'pay your dues' and have options open if Mesa should stop hiring for years (unlikely) than don't do the PACE program. If you want to avoid people on here saying you're a dufus for flying for Mesa don't do the program. Remember, you don't just "do the program" you have to interview for it before being accepted.

~wheelsup

Edit: I love your avatar. Where'd you get it? I want some...

 

[bobbysamd]

Mapd

The ab-initio I believe is a great deal. The actual flight training costs about $44,000 or so, and while higher than doing it 61, is much lower than most other 141 schools around. And, you fly '91 and above Beechcraft A36 and B58's - not little 152's (even to solo in!).

I instructed at MAPD in 1993 and recognized some of the same aircraft in which I flew from the recent literature.

I second these points. If anything, you will leave this flight school with a strong aviation education and a two-year degree. It is not P-F-T because all it is is a Part 141 flight school - and your ratings and degree are the only things it promises. While a ninety to ninety-five percent hiring rate are great odds, it is still not an ironclad guarantee of hire. I'm sure, Wheelsup, that you have encountered at least one or two clowns who alienated people enough to lose "the interview," just as I did at MAPD many years ago.

You pay 12-13k for some multi time and 40 hrs of CRJ Level 6 training, as well as ground school on the CRJ systems. You get an interview with Mesa after completion and in good standing, and most people pass the interview. I believe I stated on another post that about 85% of the PACE guys get hired who start the program . . . .

Those are not good odds. You lose, and you leave with some paid-for multi time and now-useless sim time. Not to mention that you are out all that money. Because you are not applying the training you received in the sim, the skills you acquired in it will evaporate quickly.

Here again, do you want to bet $12,000 on an interview? Think about it.

 

[AZaviator]

The program sounds decent, however there could be two big possible downsides. Number one, the possibility of you finishing there with your ratings and your 300hrs and not being hired on with Mesa, or not getting selected for an interview. Then you won't be in the best of shape. I seriously doubt any other regional would hire you only with your ratings and very little real world experience. You probably will have wished all that money was spent on your CFI tickets, rather than CRJ sim time, which really isn't too useful for someone just starting out.

The other downside I see for this program is that you might have to fly for Mesa.

 

[fly2002]

Ok i'll bite

Hi all, Here's my background.
Flight instructed for a year and a half.
Flew cargo in large transport catagory airplanes for a 135 operater. Considered one of the best in the country. Not your typical single pilot stuff. It was twin turbine, 26,000 lbs.

I now fly for Mesa as a CRJ FO. Some of you have got to be kidding me. The difference in 121 ops and 135 ops is night and day. I would not go back to 135 ops. Even if I was furloughed. Hell, I'd flip burgers before that. hey...less chance of dying is the way I see it. And dude, I make a whole lot more now than I ever did flight instructing, and even while flying cargo. AND i'm still in my first year. 350 Driver, thank you for continually being supportive.

Pulling Gear and flaps eh? I think many FO's on this board would reach through your computer screen and bi##h slap you if they heard you say that. A little insight for you.

I've been at Mesa for 9 months.

I've been online for 6 months.

Training is paid for.

During training I even received SIX weeks off PAID IN FULL to sit around and drink beer and fly across the country....to pretty much do what I just said.

I'm now senior in my base FO #12 out of 67. I average 14 days off a month....this month it was 16. Hell i haven't even seen a plane in a week now.

My captain, unlike your students, will most likely not try to kill me.
Ok sorry for the rant all, but seriously. The 121 world is TOTALLY different, and a lot better after having flown in general aviation and then part 135.
But,
JMHO