MESA to fly for Delta???

[737 Pylt]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: MESA to fly for Delta???

Grow up and stop blaming Herndon for all your problems.

T-Gates:
Didn't you know that is what the rjdc does, it blames their problems on everyone else! Their claims are based on lies and twisted facts, and their case is crumbling before their eyes. It's just too bad they are single handedly destroying this industry led by that loser DF and his sidekick JB!

 

[T-Gates]

Couldn't agree more....

 

[becket]

It wouldn't surprise me if Mesa did fly for DAL,

A Virus has no choice but to spread. It is it's very nature.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: MESA to fly for Delta???

Wouldn't you rather have ALPA Lawyers and Reps working on stopping JO from making a joke of the industry? Or do you just want to concentrate on what you and a very small majority of ALPA represented pilots want.....

IF you just paid a little bit of attention you and others would realize that it is ALPA policy that resulted in the creation of Freedom, which in turn resulted in the Mesa contract that has pushed us all into this "low ball" race that you call a joke. That same policy was responsible for the creation of Republic, which decidedly "helped" the Chautauqua pilots to do what they did. They also manged to coerce PSA and destroy ALG and PDT in the process. It won't be long before Mesaba pays the price and is forced to fly cheaper than PCL, which will get its day at the bottom of the barrel when the time comes.

Whether you like or whether you don't those lawyers and reps haven't been working on stopping JO or anyone else like him at any regional airline. What they have been doing is fostering the devastation of regional pilot groups in support of their mainline counterparts, who have in fact not protected a single job as a result of their predatory scope.

I'm all for scope that protects jobs, i.e., the job you have -- not the one that you want at the expense of mine. So I guess I do have a problem -- I'm not suckered in by smooth talking politicians that would gladly eliminate everyone like me if they only had the chance. I don't wish them well and I don't care if that pysses them off. Maybe one day they will wake up when one or more of the small carriers they want to squash today, makes a successful low bid on their real flying tomorrow. Just wait until management realizes that they can put that flying up for the lowest bid as well. By then it will be too late.

Why do you think airlines like JBlue, AirTran Southwest and UPS won't join alpo? They are smart enough to recognize that if they do, they and their companies will be shafted in the interest of the union's power brokers. They are much better off by keeping their independent unions (JB will eventually form one) than they would be by accepting token membership in the Herndon country club. I can only hope they'll continue to maintain their independence and stay out of that quagmire. If they don't, they'll be swallowed by the quicksand just as all the other small carriers have been.

 

[Freight Dog]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: MESA to fly for Delta???

I'm all for scope that protects jobs, i.e., the job you have -- not the one that you want at the expense of mine.

Aren't all scope clauses meant to protect jobs?

Why do you think airlines like JBlue, AirTran Southwest and UPS won't join alpo? They are smart enough to recognize that if they do, they and their companies will be shafted in the interest of the union's power brokers. They are much better off by keeping their independent unions (JB will eventually form one) than they would be by accepting token membership in the Herndon country club. I can only hope they'll continue to maintain their independence and stay out of that quagmire. If they don't, they'll be swallowed by the quicksand just as all the other small carriers have been.

One thing surplus... you say that ALPA sold the regional pilots down the river and it's all for the mainline pilot groups. Using your argument, why WOULDN'T JB, AirTran, SWA and UPS join ALPA? They are all what you would call "mainline" carriers, so they should be the "privileged" ones using your logic. Ya know... no one to oppress them - they would be the oppressors of their poor regional affiliates. Too bad, with the exception of AirTran, none of them have regional affiliates. UPS has feeders flying Caravans and twin Cessnas so I won't even count those.

Take it easy!

 

[PadFull'oTrim]

First off I hope that I never see Mesa flying under DAL. Mesa DOES NOT offer the quality of service that Delta expects, just look at their operation for other carriers, its sub par at best. This company is a plague that just keeps infecting other carriers. Soon we will all be working for nothing or not even working at all because of this. BE AWARE the more that MESA grows the more possiblity your career has to shirink. I am not too worried because Delta i believe has eyes and can see what goes on with this CHEAP product. If you think this is a slander at MESA, youre right.

OH and hey i heard that J.O. gives his reserve pilots $4.75 an hour on your days off to come over and polish his 15 motorcycles...

 

[MedFlyer]

I don't think DL management really cares that much about quality considering that ASA, one of DL's own regionals, ranks dead last in just about every customer service field. The days of good service at DL have long since past.

DL is looking for cheap. If Mesa is cheap, they'll have a good chance. The only thing that could stop them is DALPA's contract.

 

[T-Gates]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: MESA to fly for Delta???

IF you just paid a little bit of attention you and others would realize that it is ALPA policy that resulted in the creation of Freedom, which in turn resulted in the Mesa contract that has pushed us all into this "low ball" race that you call a joke.

Oh, I payed attention alright.....

ALPA's and the Mesa MEC policy was not to accept sub-par rates to fly the 70 and 90 seat jets! THATS what created Freedom! It was also the lack of job-protecting scope! Which you are trying so hard to break at DAL. Instead of Management giving in, JO created the ultimate whipsaw to break the pilot group. You cannot blame ALPA national for Freedom, that is very naive of you to even believe that....

That same policy was responsible for the creation of Republic, which decidedly "helped" the Chautauqua pilots to do what they did.

Now who's not paying attention.....

First off, CHQ is represented by the Teamsters, not ALPA. So how the HELL could ALPA national policy affect ther negotiations? I think Wexford management was the one taking the cue from another group (i.e. Mesa Management) in thier creation of Republic. I have not fully read the CHQ TA so I cannot comment on if it is anywhere near Mesa's TA.

They also manged to coerce PSA and destroy ALG and PDT in the process.

Didn't all 3 WO's agree to J4J? So, would I be off base to say that it was purely a descision of Airways management to give jets to PSA? I don't think so. All 3 took concessions, all 3 were ready to accept J4J, tell me how ALPA national screwed ALG and PDT on that deal...

It won't be long before Mesaba pays the price and is forced to fly cheaper than PCL, which will get its day at the bottom of the barrel when the time comes.

Now your talking out your ass.....

If anything, I think the consensus at Mesaba is that it is all or nothing on this contract. Ironically that was the same attitude your pilot group had pre-Strike. It seemed to work out for you guys! Why do you automatically assume the Mesaba pilots are going to lay down and let management take them down?! Someone has to set new precident...

As for PCL, we start contract talks late next year, but we have the same mentality that we need a significantly better contract. And most if not all of us are prepared to walk for it too.

Just becase one pilot group took a leap rearward doesn't mean that the rest of us do too.

I'm all for scope that protects jobs, i.e., the job you have -- not the one that you want at the expense of mine.

So you are saying that you want to trade someone else's lopsided opinion for your own?! That is more self-centered than anything you have accused DW and others at ALPA National of doing! So you now want to jeopardize the rest of our chances at getting Major jobs just so you can feel good for your final years at CMR? What a load of crap! Scope is protecting my future, not hindering yours.

 

[Freight Dog]

T-gates, it's useless arguing with surplus. I'm willing to bet that he'd find a way to connect the Kennedy assasination as some evil Herndon plot to oppress the regional pilots.

Watch him contradict himself:

I'm all for scope that protects jobs, i.e., the job you have -- not the one that you want at the expense of mine. So I guess I do have a problem -- I'm not suckered in by smooth talking politicians that would gladly eliminate everyone like me if they only had the chance.

Can't help but laugh....

 

[surplus1]

T-gates, it's useless arguing with surplus.

Actually arguing with me is not at all useless, unless of course you have no argument. If you choose to attack me and ignore the evidence that supports my allegations, that's not my problem. If you can refute the evidence, do so. If you can't, then I'll wait for comments from thinkers like FDJ and the General. While I often disagree with them, they both have something to say and are worth reading. If the inference is a shoe worth wearing, be my guest.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: MESA to fly for Delta???

Oh, I payed attention alright.....

ALPA's and the Mesa MEC policy was not to accept sub-par rates to fly the 70 and 90 seat jets! THATS what created Freedom! It was also the lack of job-protecting scope! Which you are trying so hard to break at DAL. Instead of Management giving in, JO created the ultimate whipsaw to break the pilot group. You cannot blame ALPA national for Freedom, that is very naive of you to even believe that....

Whether or not you paid attention is apparently open for debate.

I don't know what the Mesa MEC policy was or is, other than to accept the "advice" of ALPA and claim responsibility for the "innovation" called Jets for Jobs. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I wouldn't call that "policy" one that warrants pride.

There is no evidence to support the claim that ALPA's policy was not to accept sub-par rates to fly the 70 and 90 seat jets, especially in light of the fact that all recent ALPA agreements do just that. On the other hand there is a substantial body of evidence to support the contention that ALPA's policy has been to prevent the operation of 70 and 90 seat jets by any regional carrier. This evidence is in repeated public statements made by the ALPA President, numerous ALPA publications, and confirmed by the Scope clauses of every major airline represented by the ALPA.

There is also substantial evidence to support the allegation that the most probable cause of Freedom's genesis was a direct response to a "scope" policy in the USAirways PWA consistent with "ALPA's policy". That same provision is now a component of the Delta PWA. The particular provision borders on restraint of trade in that it attempts to prevent a company from engaging in business with a third party that is not signatory to the contract. The provision has not been challenged legally, simply because there were and are easier ways around it.

Now who's not paying attention.....

First off, CHQ is represented by the Teamsters, not ALPA. So how the HELL could ALPA national policy affect ther negotiations? I think Wexford management was the one taking the cue from another group (i.e. Mesa Management) in thier creation of Republic. I have not fully read the CHQ TA so I cannot comment on if it is anywhere near Mesa's TA.

It is not a revalation that CHQ is represented by the IBT. If you actually believe that ALPA's policies do not affect negotiations and carriers not represented by the ALPA, you have a great deal to learn about collective bargaining.

I can agree that Wexford may have followed in the footsteps of MAG when it decided to create Republic. Incidentally it also followed in the footsteps of ALPA, which created Mid Atlantic. While Wexford's reasons were not the same as MAG's, it is no secret (to the informed) that Republic was created to circumvent the Chautauqua pilots' NO vote on the issue of Jets for Jobs, an ALPA creation. The creation of Republic in fact forced the CHQ pilots to reverse their vote and accept J4J in an effort to protect themselves against the Republic alter ego. If you believe that the subsequent end product of their negotiations was not adversely affected by this, then there is little point in discussing it with you.

Unlike you, I have read their contract. It is substantially better than Mesa's any way you choose to look at it. Considering the obstacle they had to face as a result of ALPA's policies, I think they did very well. That they were adversely affected by ALPA's policies and would otherwise likely have done much better should be obvious, even to the uninitiated.

Didn't all 3 WO's agree to J4J? So, would I be off base to say that it was purely a descision of Airways management to give jets to PSA? I don't think so. All 3 took concessions, all 3 were ready to accept J4J, tell me how ALPA national screwed ALG and PDT on that deal...

Are you honestly that naive? Yes, all 3 WO's did ultimately agree to J4J. All three were intensely pressured by ALPA to do so. PSA was merely the first to violate its pact with the other two and give in to the pressure. ALG was the last and even went so far as to picket ALPA itself. Sure it was a decision of USAG management to "give" jets to PSA and not the others. Shall we call it a reward for their abdication? It is also the decision of USAG management to shrink ALG to nothing and leave PDT hanging. I don't suppose that in your world that could possibly be a punishment for their reluctance? Where was ALPA in all of this? What did it do to support the PDT and ALG pilots? Let me help you... it offered them a "flow through" to the new alter ego it created (Mid Atlantic) as a means of ensuring that at least those regional pilots would never fly anything with more than 70 seats. In addition, its J4J policy forced all 3 WO's, plus Midway, plus Mesa, plus TSA and CHQ to accept J4J, thus abrogating their seniority and their contracts to USAirways pilots. Dirty politics at best and at worst, the total abdication of their responsibility to fairly represent the interest of all of the pilots at each of those airlines.

If you choose to ingnore all of that, go ahead. I just don't happen to think that I can protect my security in the jungle by pretending that venemous snakes do not exist, especially when they are "rattling" all around me. Maybe you know more about snakes than I do. I wish you luck.

Now your talking out your ass.....

That's sort of tacky. With a little effort I'm sure you can do better.

If anything, I think the consensus at Mesaba is that it is all or nothing on this contract. Ironically that was the same attitude your pilot group had pre-Strike. It seemed to work out for you guys! Why do you automatically assume the Mesaba pilots are going to lay down and let management take them down?! Someone has to set new precident...

I don't doubt at all the desires or the resolve of Mesaba's pilot group. Unfortunately, resolve is not always the determining factor. It is unfair to compare Mesaba to Comair; unfair to Mesaba. The CMR scenario took place in a completely different environment and is not comparable to the current situation faced by the Mesaba group. Their condition is far more precarious and a strike in this environment is far more likely to result in their replacement. The availability of qualified and unemployed pilots is much greater than it was, the group is smaller, the airline already owns an alter ego, etc., etc. While it is not all doom and gloom, it is much more difficult for them than it was for Comair. While I admire what we were able to do, I'm not stupid. I don't at all expect them to roll over and I admire their guts, but I do realize that the circumstances are not the same. That's not their fault, it's just the way it is. Timing has a great deal to do with the outcome of collective bargaining.

As for PCL, we start contract talks late next year, but we have the same mentality that we need a significantly better contract. And most if not all of us are prepared to walk for it too.

More power to you. I wish you well, however I'll wait to cross that bridge when we get to it.

Just becase one pilot group took a leap rearward doesn't mean that the rest of us do too.

I like that attitude but I regret that while everyone is willing to procalim it, few seem willing to do it. Witness the steps backward by SKYW, AWAC and ACA (before their management decided to stand). All three took concessions for "growth" from their bankrupt "partner". The result, combined with the Mesa debacle and the shafting of the USAG regionals, will negatively impact the Mesaba effort, torpedo the XJT and ASA negotiations, has forced a contract extension and J4J on TSA, forced J4J on CHQ, and are likely to ultimately result in concessions at CMR. The struggle at EGL is legendary.

In case you didn't notice, one of those carriers is non-union, one is represented by the IBT and all the rest belong (I won't say represented) to ALPA. To date, the ALPA has taken no public position against the decline of wages and benefits at any of those member carriers and is officially silent on the issues at Eagle. I suppose that is understandable, given that ALPA is busy "defending the profession" and can't be bothered protecting the interests of all those commuter pilots and their stepping-stone airlines who after all are not yet a component of "the profession".

So you are saying that you want to trade someone else's lopsided opinion for your own?! That is more self-centered than anything you have accused DW and others at ALPA National of doing! So you now want to jeopardize the rest of our chances at getting Major jobs just so you can feel good for your final years at CMR? What a load of crap! Scope is protecting my future, not hindering yours.

My apologies, I am too "slow". I understand your words, but their significance or relevance both escape me. I'm happy that you hope to fly for a real airline some day and hope that your wishes will be realized. Unfortunately, I don't think your dream will come true prior to 2010, unless of course you aspire to AirTran, ATA or JB. While those are all fine companies, I haven't forgotten that only yesterday, most folks like you didn't consider them worthy of your aspirations. Now all of a sudden they seem to represent the "new dream". Sort of fickle don't you think?

Lets just say that whether or not you get your dream job or when you get it, has nothing to do with how or what I feel about my present job.

Best wishes. I sincerely hope you'll be hired at the major of your choice, next week if not sooner.