Mesa Pilots: Please tell me what I am missing something

[B777]

Mesa Pilots: Please tell me what I am missing

I have never done reasearch on my own about Mesa and all I know is that Mesa sucks because almost every pilot I talk to say so. Matter of fact one time I was talking to a Comair pilot that said he would quit if they were bought over by Mesa.

Then I read the article about Mesa in Air Inc's Airline Pilot Careers magazine and I realized that is actually a place that I would like to work! In addition, I admire what I learned about Mesa's leader Jonathan Ornstein. This guy went from being an a/c cleaner to turning around Expressjet, then taking on Mesa and turning Mesa into one of the most competitive regional in the industry.

But again, this information is from a source that I don't wholeheartly trust: Air Inc. (due to inaccuracies I have discovered from their taped interviews to their information published about some airlines in their articles, etc.) So therfore I have decided to go directly to Mesa pilots and get their input.

Here's why I think it is a good place for me to work at. In the article, they indciated that upgrade is usually with in 2 years. You fly a lot, minimum days off is 10 days. That's great. I am single and I want to fly as much as possible to accumulate hours. Matter of fact, I would love to time out by Dec 1! That's one month off with pay! So yeah, crew scheduling can call me anytime they want, I would love to fly. Or is it not so? What am I missing out of this picture?

Now about pay. First year FO on the prop is $1555 a month or $1754 on a jet. Not bad. 1st year FO pay for Expressjet is $1808. Now here's the difference though. If I upgrade in 2 years, that means my pay in the begining of the 3rd year (at 25 month of service) would be from the low of $2711 a month if I was a captain on the BE1900 or $5268 a month on the CRJ-900. If I was at Expressjet, I would be an FO during my 25th month of service and I would be paid $2857 a month. So there is a chance I could be making more at Mesa and I would be accumulating PIC time. If I would compare Captain pay ERJ for ERJ, Mesa is at $4657 a month while Expressjet is at $5108. So it is definelty less when compared rate for rate. However, in reality, an Expressjet pilot would be getting paid more than me for the 1st two years, but I will be making more for the 3rd and 4th year (estimated upgrade time at Expressjet as of today is 4 years).

At Mesa, I have more choices of airplanes I can fly and bases I could bid into! Actually, the airplane I really want to fly is the CRJ-700. Something I can not do if I was to work for Expressjet and few other regionals for that matter.

In addition, depending of which base you choose, you can have flight benefits on one of the following airlines: UA, US, DL, and HP. I would prefer US as they allow companinons (or whaterver they are called depending on what airline, girlfrined, significant other, etc.) to travel free of charge. According to the acrticle, as a Mesa pilot you get the same benefits as the airline which you are flying for. True to some point. I can tell you with DL, you get the same benefit, but at a lower pirority (except OH and ASA but not for too long for ASA). Never the less, my companion travles for free and that's what matters to me.

Now about Union matters. Before I read the article, I thought Mesa pilots did not even have a union! This is how misinformed I was. Then I learened pilots of Mesa, Freedom and CC Air are all under the same ALPA seniority. Matter of fact a Mesa pilot can bid into Freedom and vice versa. So what's the big issue about Freedom then? Was it an issue before and now solved? Also, what is CC Air?

before I read the article, my top choices were Comair, Expressjet, AWAC, and Skywest. But now I am considering as Mesa to be my top choice. I will be represented by ALPA, the pay is OK I have seen worse, I will upgrade in 2 years, stay another year with MESA as a captain to rack up PIC time, and then move on to a bigger and better job. So to me it sounds like Mesa is a good place to go as long as you know what to expect.

Am I missing something over here? Mesa pilots, please help.

 

[AWACoff]

After reading that dribble, I wanted to work for Mesa as well. Why don't you ask a Mesa pilot how many grievances they have outstanding right now. Why that article had such a pro-Mesa slant, I don't know. We all wanted to fly our butts off and time out by Dec. 1st before we got into this game. Your attitude will change if you are like the 99% of pilots I have ever met. Good luck with that upgrade in 2 years. It will always be 2 years or less...unless there is another terrorist attack. But that stuff will never happen again, right?

 

[RJP]

You sir, are a pathetic whore. They'll love you at Mesa.

 

[5ontheglide]

"I admire what I learned about Mesa's leader Jonathan Ornstein."
Keep learning about him! He is a plague of this industry! But that's only because I am being threatened with 20% pay cuts, benefit reduction, contract shredding and my furlough next month due to this guy's business tactics and others like him! Read some more about and I'm warning you that you're about to get bombarded with harassment for this post. Get educated and make the right decision for you! Forget what everyone else thinks, and remember you don't need to take the first interview you get!!! Don't suffer from "But I want to fly that one!" Good luck and be careful!

 

[miles otoole]

What's happenin' J.O.? Tell the wife and my kids I said hello.

 

[nimtz]

Hmm straight from the mouth of Air Inc. Yes propaganda can do funny things. Hey looking at history another way according to that Joesph Goebbels fella, Hitler must of been a stand-up guy. Oh well add me to the list of those who responded to this flame bait. Bottom line is if Mesa hires you first then go there and get started. There is no such thing as 'the place to be' in the cannibalistic regional world.

 

[Magneto]

I have never heard of anyone jumping ship at a regional and heading to Mesa. There are a ton of ex-Mesa guys at SkyWest. What does that tell you? It might look good on paper but I'll bet you'll regret that decision sooner than later.

My prediction.........this thread will be up to 4 pages in 2 days. Have fun. Grab your six pack and a lawn chair 'cuz this is going to get good.

 

[The Truth]

My best two tidbits of advice:

(1) Take ANYTHING AirInc says, or publishes, with a grain of salt. Caveat Emptor

(2) Do what's best for YOU.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

The race...

 

[gkrangers]

The race...

to the top?

 

[flyburg]

wow,

Inexperienced guy is trying to get some information about an airline on.... hmmm...flightINFO.com...and.. gets slammed. Real mature responses. Can't imagine why any of the guys responding are not yet hired by the majors as it is clear that they are mature professionals that started their careers knowing everything.

Good luck looking for info B777

 

[labbats]

I'm not offended by the original post at all. In fact, I could see myself posting much the same thing a couple years ago. That's the sad thing, here's a post from one person who read that article, but you know that there's 100 other people who thought the same thing and didn't write up a question here on flightinfo.com.

Here's my suggestions:
Talk to fellow friends that are in the regionals now. Find out what they think.

I'll tell you myself that knowing what I know now, I wouldn't work at Mesa. If you look at the fact that they don't pay block or better, their per diem is far less, and they have 9 days off and REALLY screw over their workforce by pushing work rules, then you'll see that what is on paper isn't the full story. I've heard that after a reserve pilot lands after being on duty 8-10 hours, they'll have them sit ready reserve at the airport until they time out. That's just one of many things I have heard.

Realize that to each their own, but chasing PIC time is all in the quest for something better in life. Is it worth a much worse life for the time at Mesa for shaving off a year or two getting to the majors? For me the answer is no, but make your own decisions from speaking directly to pilots in the know, not slanted ads you read in air inc.

 

[B777]

I'm not offended by the original post at all. In fact, I could see myself posting much the same thing a couple years ago. That's the sad thing, here's a post from one person who read that article, but you know that there's 100 other people who thought the same thing and didn't write up a question here on flightinfo.com.

Here's my suggestions:
Talk to fellow friends that are in the regionals now. Find out what they think.

I'll tell you myself that knowing what I know now, I wouldn't work at Mesa. If you look at the fact that they don't pay block or better, their per diem is far less, and they have 9 days off and REALLY screw over their workforce by pushing work rules, then you'll see that what is on paper isn't the full story. I've heard that after a reserve pilot lands after being on duty 8-10 hours, they'll have them sit ready reserve at the airport until they time out. That's just one of many things I have heard.

Realize that to each their own, but chasing PIC time is all in the quest for something better in life. Is it worth a much worse life for the time at Mesa for shaving off a year or two getting to the majors? For me the answer is no, but make your own decisions from speaking directly to pilots in the know, not slanted ads you read in air inc.

wow, their pilots actually sit AT the airport? Up till now I have never heared such a thing for the pilot group. What I know is that reserve is sitting at home and being within 2 hours drive to the airport, which I don't mind doing as I have plenty to do at home.

As far as getting slamed, flamed, whatever you want to call. That's fine, I really don't care about loosers like that or what they have to say. To tell you the truth, I joined flightinfo.com in order to learn more about the industry I am about a join and make and informed decison. I found out that 80% of stuff posted here is about pilots complaining about anything they can find to complain about and slamming each other at it. However there are few geniune pilots out there that are willing to help a pilot starting out like myself, and that's what I am doing, looking for information they can provide, or to tell me where I can get that information.

For the pilots that have nothing but negative things to say and not really give any info, get a life. For all the others thanks.

Oh by the way, RJP, care to elaborate as to why I am a pathetic whore? Perhaps pilos like me can learn on how to become a glorfied pilot like you?

Now it is interesting that you metioned that they don't pay block or better and their per diem sucks. Here's what I was wondering:

Let's say I am a Mesa pilot and I push back from the gate at 0800. There are delays at the airport so we are out there taxing on one egngine. We start the second engine at 0840 and wheels up time is at 0845. I land at my destination at 1100 and taxi in at 1110. What will I be paid at Mesa? What about my flight time that will be used to determine whether I have timed out on Dec 1? Any Mesa pilot that can provide that info?

 

[ERJFO]

Now it is interesting that you metioned that they don't pay block or better and their per diem sucks. Here's what I was wondering:

Let's say I am a Mesa pilot and I push back from the gate at 0800. There are delays at the airport so we are out there taxing on one egngine. We start the second engine at 0840 and wheels up time is at 0845. I land at my destination at 1100 and taxi in at 1110. What will I be paid at Mesa? What about my flight time that will be used to determine whether I have timed out on Dec 1? Any Mesa pilot that can provide that info?

Whatever the flight was blocked at you will get paid. So if it was supposed to take you 1:15 you'll get paid that even if it takes 3 hours if you finnish it in less time you'll get paid for the shorter flight time (not the block time). At most other airlines you mentioned you get paid block or better meaning if you finnish early you don't take a pay cut and if you get delayed and get paid twice as long you get paid twice as much...

I sent you a private message as well feel free to ask more questions... Also after you get your PIC time at Mesa, where would you go?

There are TONS of RJ pilots out there with alot more PIC time than you'll have in 5 years that are struggling to go anywhere reputable. It may be easier to go to a bottom feeder that flies larger airplanes but to go somewhere with a good contract and good quality of life it'll take you 7 or 8 years at Mesa or anywhere else for that reason.

 

[ERJFO]

Oh yeah, and Jonathan Ornstein was fired from Continental Express before it was ever ExpressJet and he may be the reason Mesa can't pick up Continental's flying because he burned all those bridges.

 

[miles otoole]

Although, I have to say I have met more 26-28 year old FOs who have come from Mesa than any other regional. From CFI to WN in 4-5 years ain't too shabby. Look around at all the 5 year FOs at CMR, FLYI (oops), ASA, AE, etc. Do what is right for you and your family.

 

[ERJFO]

A previous post from a old Mesa pilot:

"Ive been with Mesa for 5 months after being in corporate for a short period of time. I thought it would be better to get all that flight time much faster, but Ive already put in my 2 weeks at Mesa because their contract (which I didnt even have any experience with) is horrbile and I cant afford to live on those wages while being treated like an inmate. The crews at Mesa are the only thing that keeps you sane there..... I just know its not for me so im leaving them to go back to corporate and better my QOL. I will tell people how it is there if they are curious about the company, but you shouldnt just start bashing the company because your company isnt doing so good. We are the "Made in China" airline and it is hard for anyone to compete against us with contracts, but thats how THEY run the company, not the pilots. I agree, hopefully ALPA and the pilot group can do something for all the pilots out there when it comes time to make some changes to the pilot contract. Are you this negative in the cockpit? Your captain just wants you to STFU and fly. stop whining because you will never win. We all need to be in this together and unfortunately it takes more than a couple thousand grievances to make a change to any union contract out there."

 

[miles otoole]

Funny thing is, he didn't say where he was heading off to. I am not sure it's that much better at any other regional, especially when faced with 5 year upgrades that will more than likely, never be there in 5 years. Fact is, Mesa is taking business from every other regional and dropping QOL. Pilot's aren't in charge anymore. Some companies are growing and others are shrinking.

 

[MarineGrunt]

B777 - Don't sweat the flamers too much. A lot of people here would rather inflate their egos by belittling others rather than showing them the light. The funny thing is that these are usually the same people be-otching about their QOL and "the race." One should be able to ask an honest question and get an honest answer.

With all the pi$$ing and moaning that goes on here, I'm really glad I found flightinfo and lurk on a regular basis. It is probably the best thing I have done for my aviation career, I only wish I'd found it 10 years ago. If I never had, I most likely would have ended up at Mesa, G0-Jets or some other bottom feeding operation and been none the wiser on why everyone despised me, why my name, phone number and address were listed on a public website (in the case of GJ anyway).

Anyway, make the most out of this website to do research on your planned career path. You'll learn which places to stay away from and which ones are the places to be (for this week anyway!).

 

[JustaNumber]

Whatever the flight was blocked at you will get paid. So if it was supposed to take you 1:15 you'll get paid that even if it takes 3 hours if you finnish it in less time you'll get paid for the shorter flight time (not the block time). At most other airlines you mentioned you get paid block or better meaning if you finnish early you don't take a pay cut and if you get delayed and get paid twice as long you get paid twice as much...

I sent you a private message as well feel free to ask more questions... Also after you get your PIC time at Mesa, where would you go?

There are TONS of RJ pilots out there with alot more PIC time than you'll have in 5 years that are struggling to go anywhere reputable. It may be easier to go to a bottom feeder that flies larger airplanes but to go somewhere with a good contract and good quality of life it'll take you 7 or 8 years at Mesa or anywhere else for that reason.

The above are excellent points. So let’s consider what happens if you choose Mesa over any of the other more reputable airlines. For the first two years, you’ll make less, possibly a lot less than had you gone elsewhere. Then for the next two years (assuming you can still get that quick upgrade—nothing is certain in this industry), you’ll make more than the other places where you would still be an FO. But then after that, you go back to making less than anywhere else, once again possibly a lot less. As the previous poster noted, there are THOUSANDS of RJ captains waiting to move up to all those nonexistent majors jobs. So there’s a good chance you’ll be stuck at Mesa for a LONG time (making sub par pay). In the end, considering that nobody actually saves all their income over their career and then divides it up equally, you’ll have two good financial years at Mesa compared to possibly a decade of unfavorable pay years. Add to that, you will be hating your management the entire time you are at Mesa. Quality of life, to me at least, can be counted by much more than dollars and cents.

One more concept to consider…how will you be treated by your peers in the industry? I am not saying that it is necessarily right to judge someone by his or her choice of employer, but there are many pilots in the industry who will. Consider all those times you will say hello to your fellow pilots in the airport, on the jumpseat, or in the hotel van. How will they respond to you? I am telling you that many will treat you as a pariah. Many believe that by you accepting work at lower than standard pay and working conditions at Mesa, you allow their company to force their employees to take pay cuts and/or furloughs just to keep up. You will become a social outcast. Is this justified? It doesn’t really matter—that’s how many pilots feel, and you have to be willing to accept this. I, for one, want to be proud of the choices I have made and will make, both for my own personal gain and for the betterment of this industry. Good luck in your choices.

 

[stb]

I will upgrade in 2 years, stay another year with MESA as a captain to rack up PIC time, and then move on to a bigger and better job. So to me it sounds like Mesa is a good place to go as long as you know what to expect.

Am I missing something over here? Mesa pilots, please help.

Expect your stay at Mesa to be longer than 3 years. Try 5-7 years.

Most pilots like yourself use commuters as a stepping stone for their career and the commuter airline mgmt use this mentality to keep pay and QOL issues that cost money to a minimum since they use a pilots as such.

In the past, pilots would not care what was in their contract because they were moving on to bigger and brighter career options in "three" years.

In todays airline market, a commuter airline will now be a CAREER instead of a stepping stone to the major airlines like in the past.

 

[FCPhotography]

It doesn't matter where you go. When you go to move on to the next level, the "next level" won't exist because some young "shiny jet syndrome" new fish will undercut the current industry average contract.

It is great for a guy in his early twenties but the moment you get a family you will be miserable.

Nothing against Mesa. This whole industry is a sh!^ sandwich. It does not matter how smart you are or how great you perform. It is all luck.

Actually I am pretty happy. Just don't say "nobody told me."

If you want my true advice,........RUN from this industry...SAVE YOURSELF!

 

[FCPhotography]

I forgot to say. I really enjoy flying. I have lost all pride in being a regional pilot.

Just to give you an example:

I finished a 4 day trip the other day with a 1 leg deadhead on the last day (1 hour flight) that got me home at 4:00PM and I don't even commute. We get half pay for deadheads so on my last day of work I made $11 bucks BEFORE tax. My company now wants more concessions.

There are contracts out there that are much better but look what happens to them (just got furloughed from one). If you want to ask why, because someone will always do it cheaper.

Before deregulation companies looked for the sharpest and most professional pilots. Now they look for the cheapest and settle for the least qualified.

Seriously, no sweat towards Mesa and good luck. In 7-8 years you will probably know what I am talking about.

 

[B777]

It doesn't matter where you go. When you go to move on to the next level, the "next level" won't exist because some young "shiny jet syndrome" new fish will undercut the current industry average contract.

It is great for a guy in his early twenties but the moment you get a family you will be miserable.

Nothing against Mesa. This whole industry is a sh!^ sandwich. It does not matter how smart you are or how great you perform. It is all luck.

Actually I am pretty happy. Just don't say "nobody told me."

If you want my true advice,........RUN from this industry...SAVE YOURSELF!

It's funny you say because I like photography too and wouldn't mind making it as a career. But flying is what I love more than anything else and 30 years from now I don't want to have any regrets. I actually took a pay cut to start this career and my friends and family think I am crazy to jump in such an industry.

I am not really looking to move on to job with one of the majors. UA, AA, DL, NW, and US are the last airlines I want to be flying for. Nothing against those airlines, it's jsut I have met serveral pilots that went from a good paying left seat position to go to AA, UA, and NW, etc. They were furloughed and ended up back with the same company they were working for, instead starting all over in the right seat. My plan is to get the time I need with Mesa in 2 to 3 years and move on to companies like CX in Hong Kong. If CX does not materialize then there are other reputable Asian airlines that I can pursue. I actually would be interested in living in a place like Hong Kong for a few years.

However, there is one thing I was told about Mesa that I deslike and I am not sure I can put up with. That is if I fly a trip that is blocked for 2 hours, but took me 4 hours to fly because of delays, I will only get paid 2 hours. That's hard to swallow. And then add to that ATC ground delays before you even get on the plane and you will be making less than minimum wage from the time you checked in at the airport till the time you left. It's hard enough already to be sitting at the airport for 4 hours and not get paid for it, but to actually fly and not get paid for it . . . I don't know if I can put up with that in the sake of building time.

 

[labbats]

Think about it this way... you know very little of the workrules of the regionals before you get hired, and you already know about the block or better pay scandal at Mesa. You don't think there's 100 other similar tricks up their sleeves there?

 

[CapnVegetto]

OK, I'm ex-Mesa, now corporate. Here's the deal:

MESA F-ING SUCKS BIG FAT DONKEY BALLS.

I worked there for a year, and got the hell out ASAP. I was miserable. The work rules are horrible. The schedules are horrible. The company is so poorly run that it is amazing to me that the place doesn't burn down. Ornstein is not scum of the Earth, he's the stuff that the scum of the Earth wipes off the bottom of their feet. I've never seen a company and CEO that cares less about their employees than him. He WANTS you to leave. Every time a guy like me works there and leaves after a year, he LOVES it, because then he can hire someone new like you and pay $20 bucks an hour instead of $27.

The contract is pathetic. "Swiss Cheese" is too nice a description for it. It's horrible. No block or better, no duty rigs, nothing. They use f-ing reduced rest as a scheduling tool. You'll get at least 1 per trip, usually on day 3 so your compensetory rest is on days off. Reserve, you'll be 6 on 2 off. 8 days off a bid. They will schedule all recurrent training on your days off. Sometimes, during reserve, they'll extend you past your sixth day in a row by overnighting you somewhere for 24 hours, thereby giving you a 'day off' and satisfying the FAA requirement for rest. When you reposition planes say, from a gate to a ramp, after a long duty day, you are NOT PAID FOR IT. They will try to extend you past a 16 hour duty day for deadheads, ferry flights, etc. You are only paid 50% for deadhead. There are NO protections in the contract for any of these things. JO likes to argue, 'Well, the FAA says it's legal, so it must be safe.' If you EVER fly an aircraft without at least 2 to 3 MEL's it's a monumental event.

You keep talking about a 2 year upgrade.......FORGET IT. That was pure luck. They moved a bunch of ERJ's to MCO on the Freedom Certificate, and the upgrade went REALLY JUNIOR because nobody wanted to be associated with Freedom. The CRJ is getting really really senior because a 900 base will soon be opening in CLT. A lot of 1900 guys and Dash guys are moving to the jet. CRJ upgrade is running 4 to 5 years now, and going down. I have a buddy on the CLT ERJ that passed up the ERJ upgrade because of Freedom, thinking CRJ wasn't far behind, and now all of a sudden he's stuck at ERJ FO, because the CRJ is going so senior. Think you'll just take a prop captain position? Wrong again. Mesa has equipment locks in place. You can't move to the prop from the jet. If you're a jet FO, you're stuck as a jet FO until you can hold jet captain. And don't rely on those pay comparisons. XJET's contract is so much better than Mesa's as far as work rules and pay rules, the pay difference will be much much closer than you think. You're just looking at min guarantees.

Even when you do upgrade and begin getting your PIC time, good luck competing with the other 10,000 RJ captains out there looking for jobs. Not to mention all the Indy guys now looking for jobs, and all those furloughed AA, DAL, USAir, etc. guys looking for jobs. How about the ATA guys looking for jobs? Don't think that they're not competing for CX and those other places too.

Bottom line, don't worry about upgrade time, etc. because that is always changing. You NEVER know, despite what Kit Darby and all those a$$holes say. They don't know their butt from a hole in the ground.......they're only interested in taking your money. Look at bases, QOL. Where do you want to live, who's going to treat you the best? You're going to be at a Regional for a while, like it or not. So you might as well be happy.

Good luck.

 

[Going2Golf]

Also think about this, JO who you have said you "admire" is a criminal. Not just in the sense of what he is doing/has done to the airline industry, that is just business. But he was a stock broker in CA once upon a time and there were numerous charges filed against him and his license to trade stocks was revoked and can't recall but I think his record with the SEC stretches over 6 feet long. There was a great website when he tried to take over ACA at the behest of UAL and many things came to light. This was but one of them, wish that site was still up and running today for all the people who consider Mesa.
I too would quit flying before taking a job at Mesa. Actually I would take the job at Mesa, go thru training, get typed in a new plane, and THEN quit.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

CapnVegetto,

I could almost feel your blood pressure rising as I was reading that. Yikes.

 

[Berry McCockner]

B777, Most guys on these webboards will not hestitate to jump in and defend their airline. I haven't read one Mesa pilot on here trying to butter coat his company because they know there job sucks. I heard from an ex-flight attendant that they don't give the crews hotel rooms on naps (continious duty overnight, standups, whatever you call them). They have to sleep on the plane. Naps are unsafe with a hotel and 4 hours of sleep. I can't imagine that leg home after sitting on an RJ all night. What a joke

 

[ERJFO]

I forgot to say. I really enjoy flying. I have lost all pride in being a regional pilot.

Just to give you an example:

I finished a 4 day trip the other day with a 1 leg deadhead on the last day (1 hour flight) that got me home at 4:00PM and I don't even commute. We get half pay for deadheads so on my last day of work I made $11 bucks BEFORE tax. My company now wants more concessions.

There are contracts out there that are much better but look what happens to them (just got furloughed from one). If you want to ask why, because someone will always do it cheaper.

Before deregulation companies looked for the sharpest and most professional pilots. Now they look for the cheapest and settle for the least qualified.

Seriously, no sweat towards Mesa and good luck. In 7-8 years you will probably know what I am talking about.

Half pay for deadheads??? Who do you work for?